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REVELATION CHAPTER 12

by ECCENTRICSHEEP Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:07 am

This week we will be discussing REVELATION 12. After you read the chapter, please take time to post….

1. Your favorite passages from Chapter 12
2. Things that challenged you
3. Any special insights that you would like to share with us
4. Any questions that you may have
5. Any related thoughts at all
(This is just a guideline and doesn't have to be followed exactly)

We welcome all opinions and no question is ever a "dumb" question. We want everyone to feel welcome and have the freedom to share whatever they may like. The only thing we ask is that while sharing your opinion, please be respectful to others. In short, disagree without being rude and hurtful. Also, if you are reading these posts and part of the Bible Study but feel like you don't have anything to add or post, we would ask that you please at least check in and post that you are reading with us so that we know you are there. Even when you don't say anything, it is encouraging just knowing that people are in our group with us. We all learn so much from these studies, so with that being said….. LET'S GO!!!!
With hammer in hand, I began to pull out every nail. Every board I placed beside me on the damp ground. After many years of pouring everything I could into avoiding that way, I found myself walking there once again.

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Re: REVELATION CHAPTER 12

by ECCENTRICSHEEP Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:20 am

Not sure how many I'll get over here. October is extremely busy for me. I'm actually going to have to write stuff for chapter 13 ahead of time to be ready for next Monday lol.

A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.


This crown is STEPHANOS, the victor's crown. The dragon does NOT wear the victor's crown, that one is DIADEM. So the woman is basically the church, they differ a bit but that is basically it. Varies depending on whether you think all of this has happened or not probably.

"the woman, of course, is a symbol of the "whole family of God." -Coffman

"the woman represents the faithful of Israel in the Old Testament; i.e., the spiritual remnant of God's people who have kept covenant with him." -Myers

"12:1 a woman. The imagery calls to mind Joseph’s dream (Gen. 37:9, 10) and the picture of Jerusalem bringing forth the Messiah and His remnant (Is. 54:1–4; 66:7–13; Mic. 5:3). The Old Testament saints collectively are in view. Mary the mother of Jesus is included in this group, but only as an outstanding member of the whole. The later history shows that the New Testament saints also are included (vv. 13–17). The light-bearing character of the woman foreshadows the glory of the new Jerusalem (21:11, 22–27). In her privileges the church now already partakes in the blessings to come. But she is still buffeted by Satan (chs. 12–14 note)." -reformation study bible

(they brought up Mary since some think its Mary or Eve even)

Matthew Henry
1. We see how the church is represented in this vision.
(1.) As a woman, the weaker part of the world, but the spouse of Christ, and the mother of the saints.
(2.) As clothed with the sun, the imputed righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ. Having put on Christ, who is the Sun of righteousness, she, by her relation to Christ, is invested with honourable rights and privileges, and shines in his rays.
(3.) As having the moon under her feet (that is, the world); she stands upon it, but lives above it; her heart and hope are not set upon sublunary things, but on the things that are in heaven, where her head is.
(4.) As having on her head a crown of twelve stars, that is, the doctrine of the gospel preached by the twelve apostles, which is a crown of glory to all true believers.
(5.) As in travail, crying out, and pained to be delivered. She was pregnant, and now in pain to bring forth a holy progeny to Christ, desirous that what was begun in the conviction of sinners might end in their conversion, that when the children were brought to the birth there might be strength to bring forth, and that she might see of the travail of her soul.
With hammer in hand, I began to pull out every nail. Every board I placed beside me on the damp ground. After many years of pouring everything I could into avoiding that way, I found myself walking there once again.

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Re: REVELATION CHAPTER 12

by ECCENTRICSHEEP Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:49 am

2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.


JESUS.

"for the child about to be born was the seed of woman, the incarnate son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ." -Coffman

3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.


SATAN.

symbols of power, but not victory. The dragon DOES NOT wear the victor's crown, he is not victorious. Satan is powerful but not victorious. Horns are a symbol of power. 7 heads shows power and authority on earth or even the 7 hills of Rome.

reformation study bible:
12:3 a great red dragon. This figure is identified as Satan, the devil, in v. 9. The image of a dragon depicts Satan in his monstrous power and hideous enmity against God. Satan has constantly opposed the plans of God and has been repeatedly defeated in the great acts of God’s saving power (Gen. 3:1, 15; Ps. 74:13, 14; Is. 27:1; 51:9, 10; Ezek. 29:3; Luke 10:18; 11:14–23; John 12:31; Col. 2:15). He rises against the Messiah (vv. 4, 5) and His servants (v. 17) but will finally be consigned to everlasting punishment (20:10).

matthew henry:
2. How the grand enemy of the church is represented.
(1.) As a great red dragon—a dragon for strength and terror—a red dragon for fierceness and cruelty.
(2.) As having seven heads, that is, placed on seven hills, as Rome was; and therefore it is probable that pagan Rome is here meant.
(3.) As having ten horns, divided into ten provinces, as the Roman empire was by Augustus Caesar.
(4.) As having seven crowns upon his head, which is afterwards expounded to be seven kings, Rev. 17:10.
(5.) As drawing with his tail a third part of the stars in heaven, and casting them down to the earth, turning the ministers and professors of the Christian religion out of their places and privileges and making them as weak and useless as he could.
(6.) As standing before the woman, to devour her child as soon as it should be born, very vigilant to crush the Christian religion in its birth and entirely to prevent the growth and continuance of it in the world.

4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.


"this indicates the power and might of the dragon" Myers (not as specific there)

"we know that Satan has some angels (Matt 25:41), and that these are almost certainly the same as the angels of 2 Peter 2:4. No less a scholar than Bruce agrees that, "the reference is probably to the angels who were involved in Satan's fall." Coffman

5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.


"and the whole biography of the earthly life, ministry, death, burial, and resurrection of the Son of God is here, compressed into nineteen words!" -Coffman

there's that 42 months thing again....not on accident. Time, times, and half a time.

"the 42 months refers to the period of oppression of the holy city and the time of the authority of the beast (rev 11:2, 13:5).

"this time period represents every minute of the whole Christian dispensation. this is given exactly in the same form as in 11:3, and there it was understood as all of the time between the two advents of Christ, and so it must be understood here. 'it describes the period of this world's existence during the whole of which the devil persecutes the church'" -Coffman
With hammer in hand, I began to pull out every nail. Every board I placed beside me on the damp ground. After many years of pouring everything I could into avoiding that way, I found myself walking there once again.

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Re: REVELATION CHAPTER 12

by QuickTwist Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:19 am

I think it's important to note that the book of Revelation is basically the same story told over and over in different ways.

The saints conquer by being conquered. Because they love God and His ways more than they love their own lives. This can be seen in contrast in 2 Timothy 3:1-5

2Tim. 3:1    But understand this, that in the last days hard times will come— 2 for people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 hardhearted, unforgiving, backbiting, without self-control, brutal, hating what is good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to an outward form of godliness but denying its power. Avoid these people!

I also want to point out "when" the "end days" are. Well, it's pretty much anything after pentecost. People might have this idea of the "last days" being a end of everything and it is, but it's also good to note that it is also a right now thing too. People who are in the US tend to think it's crazy that their religious freedoms are being contented with, but if you look around the globe, people will say, "Persecution has always been here," in parts of the middle east and such.

Finally, I want to end with this set of verse...

2Tim. 3:14    You, however, continue in what you have learned and what you have become convinced of. For you know from whom you have learned, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings that are able to make you wise, leading to salvation through trusting in Messiah Yeshua. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for restoration, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that the person belonging to God may be capable, fully equipped for every good deed.

I think being "fully equipped" is a reference to the Armor of God...

Eph. 6:10    Finally, be strong in the Lord and in His mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you are able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the worldly forces of this darkness, and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you may be able to resist when the times are evil, and after you have done everything, to stand firm. 14 Stand firm then! Buckle the belt of truth around your waist, and put on the breastplate of righteousness.f 15 Strap up your feet in readiness with the Good News of shalom.g 16 Above all, take up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.h 17 And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.j 18 Pray in the Ruach on every occasion, with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, keep alert with perseverance and supplication for all the kedoshim. 19 And pray for me when I open my mouth to make known with boldness the mystery of the Good News, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may speak boldly, the way I should.
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Re: REVELATION CHAPTER 12

by lappinglivingwater Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:02 am

An interesting chapter here. This chapter, to me, is telling the history of Israel – that is, “those who prevail with God” – in the spiritual and physical sense. And it’s the story of how we prevail with Christ as our Saviour. It’s His-story told in the stars – the only astrological story that we need to know. To examine this, let’s look at what the word Israel means. “Israel” is what God renamed Jacob in Genesis 32:28 after Jacob wrestled with God’s angel. It literally means "the prince who prevails with God", and that's the only way we can prevail in this earth, with God.

And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.”
~Genesis 32:28


The woman in the stars clothed with the sun (light), with the moon (darkness) under her feet, and with twelve stars (the patriarch angel princes of the twelve tribes of Israel) as a crown (at the head) is “Mother Israel”. That she was “with child and pained to be delivered” and that the dragon was waiting to eat up her child goes right back to God’s promise of the Messiah in the Garden of Eden, and embodies several periods in Israel’s history.

And the LORD God said unto the serpent, “Because you have done this, you are cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; you shall go upon your belly, and you shall eat dust all the days of thy life: and I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.” Unto the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply your [toil] and your conception; in [pain] you shall bring forth children; and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you.”
~Genesis 3:14-16
[Notice that the serpent, the "dragon", has been placed under Christ's feet in the prophecy, that's the position where he bruises Christ's heel from.]

And it came to pass in the process of time that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried [like a woman in labour], and their cry came up unto God because of their [oppression].
~Exodus 2:23

Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in labour pains: for now shall you go forth out of the city, and you shall dwell in the field, and you shall go even to Babylon; there shall you be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem you from the hand of your enemies.
~Micah 4:10

And there was one Anna, a prophetess… and she coming in [to the temple] that instant gave thanks also unto the Lord, and spoke of [the infant Jesus] to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
~Luke 2:36-38


The figure also fulfills the purpose that stars were placed in the heavens – for signs and seasons:

And God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth:” and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
~Genesis 1:14-16


The woman in the stars is clothed with God’s power to rule the day, and has power over the night, which is “under her feet”, being in subjection to her. And the stars (remember from chapter 1 that stars are angels) are on her crown, meaning that she has 12 princes at her head, and on her authority.

You are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
~1 Thessalonians 5:5

And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
~Romans 16:20


The dragon in the sky has seven heads and ten horns like the first beast that comes up out of the sea in the coming chapters. As much as the woman in the sky is Mother Israel, symbolizing a people, and not a single person, so is this dragon. The dragon both embodies Satan, as John says later, but also his kingdom, his “seed” that was described above in Genesis 3, and his organization.

The fact that the dragon was ready to destroy the child as soon as it was born hearkens back to Pharaoh in the time of Moses, and to Herod in the time that Jesus was born. But it also speaks of Satan’s plan to corrupt the “woman’s seed” line to prevent the Messiah from coming at all. This is something that is not talked much about in most churches I’ve been to. (In fact one pastor I knew said he didn’t believe this was a literal part of the Bible at all.) But this is described in Genesis 6, in the events that preceded another deliverer – Noah – when the “sons of God” – angels – “left their first estate” (Jude 1:6) and began to have children with humans, who were an abomination to God. It corrupted the seed line. And Noah was described as being “perfect in his generations” (“tamiym” in his “dowr” = of a pure pedigree) and did not have a corrupted seed line (therefore, he could carry on the promise made of the Messiah in the Garden). It shows that Satan is not an idiot, and can roughly see when major messianic events are taking place, though he may interpret them incorrectly.

The dragon’s tail draws a third of the stars to himself, and cast them to the earth. This hearkens back to when those angels came to corrupt the human seedline in Genesis 6, and also the influx that happened after (Genesis 6:4), again to corrupt the seed line, from which Goliath was born. Note that these things happen before Christ was born in the history in Revelation 12, that is before the child is born Who is quite obviously, literally Christ, and not a symbol for Christianity itself. (Neither "Christianity", nor the church, were "caught up to God, and to His throne", only Christ Himself was.)

The child born is Christ – as denoted by the reference to Psalm 2:9. Being caught up to God and His throne is the ascension after the resurrection. Then the woman remains until the time that she shall be dispersed to the wilderness as warned by Jesus would need to take place in the end times:

When you shall, therefore, see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whosoever reads it, let him understand:) then let they who are in Judaea flee into the mountains…
~Matthew 24:15-16


This dispersion is of the Church, the true “Israel” – those who have faith in God, keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (as stated later in the chapter).

For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed [which was Israel], and heirs according to the promise.
~Galatians 3:26-29


Satan is cast out of heaven, and goes to make war with the woman. And the woman is given two wings of a great eagle. These are the two witnesses described in Revelation 11, who cover and protect the elect (as the cherubims surrounding the ark would protect the mercy seat) – and help them to live in the wilderness for the three and a half year period. The dragon sends a flood (of lies) out of his mouth after the woman, and the earth (those on the earth) consume it, but it doesn’t harm the woman.
Last edited by lappinglivingwater on Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: REVELATION CHAPTER 12

by lappinglivingwater Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:14 am

QuickTwist wrote:I also want to point out "when" the "end days" are. Well, it's pretty much anything after pentecost. People might have this idea of the "last days" being a end of everything and it is, but it's also good to note that it is also a right now thing too. People who are in the US tend to think it's crazy that their religious freedoms are being contented with, but if you look around the globe, people will say, "Persecution has always been here," in parts of the middle east and such.


Great post! The question to me about when the ultimate end is is a matter of degree of how the signs are happening. I also agree though that there is no reason not to do what we can today, looking for the fields that are ready to be harvested. Thanks again, I enjoyed your post! :)
"Whenever you find any statement in Christian writings which you can make nothing of, do not worry: leave it alone; there will come a day, perhaps years later, when you suddenly see what it meant."
~ C.S. Lewis

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Re: REVELATION CHAPTER 12

by ECCENTRICSHEEP Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:09 am

7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.


Reformation Study Bible:
"12:5 a male child. In fulfillment of Mic. 5:3, Christ is born and His triumphant rule over the nations will be established, as certified by His resurrection and ascension.
12:7–12 The victory of Christ (v. 5) results in sweeping consequences, beginning with the expulsion of Satan by Michael, who is functioning as an agent of Christ. The passage does not speak of the fall of Satan at the time of creation but of the defeat of Satan in the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ (v. 12; John 12:31; Col. 2:15)."

Some of these put the battle after Christ died on the cross, which is when death was ultimately defeated forever.

Matthew Henry
"III. The attempts of the dragon not only proved unsuccessful against the church, but fatal to his own interests; for, upon his endeavour to devour the man-child, he engaged all the powers of heaven against him (Rev. 12:7): There was war in heaven. Heaven will espouse the quarrel of the church. Here observe,

1. The seat of this war—in heaven, in the church, which is the kingdom of heaven on earth, under the care of heaven and in the same interest.
2. The parties—Michael and his angels on one side, and the dragon and his angels on the other: Christ, the great Angel of the covenant, and his faithful followers; and Satan and all his instruments. This latter party would be much superior in number and outward strength to the other; but the strength of the church lies in having the Lord Jesus for the captain of their salvation.
3. The success of the battle: The dragon and his angels fought and prevailed not; there was a great struggle on both sides, but the victory fell to Christ and his church, and the dragon and his angels were not only conquered, but cast out; the pagan idolatry, which was a worshipping of devils, was extirpated out of the empire in the time of Constantine."

Myers
"The battle is not a specific battle, but represents the long and continuous battle between good and evil. The casting down of the dragon to the earth does not mean that there had been no evil influence on the earth prior to that time. The influence of evil began in the Garden of Eden and can be traced throughout biblical history. The climactic moment arrives as the devil is defeated and cast out of heaven. An event of crucial importance had taken place in history, namely the death of Christ on the cross. He and his followers had been dealt a severe setback."

Coffman
"this war does not merely explain Satan's fury during "the last times" as apparently limited by Beckwith, but also the fury of Satan from the garden of Eden till the end of time, thus providing the true key to the problem of just "when" this conflict occurred...…..these verses concern a past event, prior to all history, and perhaps even prior to the human creation itself

Two different wars are in view: 1. that of Michael and Satan, which issue in Satan's being thrown out of heaven, and 2. that of Christ and Satan with the final result of Satan's being thrown out of the earth and into the lake of fire."
With hammer in hand, I began to pull out every nail. Every board I placed beside me on the damp ground. After many years of pouring everything I could into avoiding that way, I found myself walking there once again.

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Re: REVELATION CHAPTER 12

by ECCENTRICSHEEP Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:26 am

13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.


Matthew Henry gets a little more specific, but in general most everyone here seems to stick with a general Satan pursuing the church our entire time and on this earth and God taking care of his church during that time.

Reformation Study Bible
12:13–17 Having failed to destroy Christ (vv. 4, 5), the Dragon tries to destroy the people of Christ. He uses his mouth, representing deceit (vv. 15, 9; 2 Thess. 2:9, 10). When deceit fails, he tries persecuting power (12:17–13:10).

Matthew Henry
II. His second attempt upon the church now in the wilderness: He persecuted the woman who brought forth the man-child, Rev. 12:13. Observe,
1. The care that God had taken of his church. He had conveyed her as on eagles’ wings, into a place of safety provided for her, where she was to continue for a certain space of time, couched in prophetic characters, taken from Dan. 7:25.
2. The continual malice of the dragon against the church. Her obscurity could not altogether protect her; the old subtle serpent, which at first lurked in paradise, now follows the church into the wilderness, and casts out a flood of water after her, to carry her away. This is thought to be meant of a flood of error and heresy, which was breathed by Arius, Nestorius, Pelagius, and many more, by which the church of God was in danger of being overwhelmed and carried away. The church of God is in more danger from heretics than from persecutors; and heresies are as certainly from the devil as open force and violence.
3. The seasonable help provided for the church in this dangerous juncture: The earth helped the woman, and opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood, Rev. 12:16. Some think we are to understand the swarms of Goths and Vandals that invaded the Roman empire, and found work for the Arian rulers, who otherwise would have been as furious persecutors as the pagan had been, and had exercised great cruelties already; but God opened a breach of war, and the flood was in a manner swallowed up thereby, and the church enjoyed some respite. God often sends the sword to avenge the quarrel of his covenant; and, when men choose new gods, then there is danger of war in the gates; intestine broils and contentions often end in the invasions of a common enemy.
4. The devil, being thus defeated in his designs upon the universal church, now turns his rage against particular persons and places; his malice against the woman pushes him on to make war with the remnant of her seed. Some think hereby are meant the Albigenses, who were first by Dioclesian driven up into barren and mountainous places, and afterwards cruelly murdered by popish rage and power, for several generations; and for no other reason than because they kept the commandments of God and held the testimony of Jesus Christ. Their fidelity to God and Christ, in doctrine, worship, and practice, was that which exposed them to the rage of Satan and his instruments; and such fidelity will expose men still, less or more, to the end of the world, when the last enemy shall be destroyed.

Myers
-At the start of 12 Myers called the woman the faithful of the Old Testament, and now "It is here that the identity of the woman changes to that of the church, whose members endure the dragon's persecution"
-the flood waters are "delusions in the form of lies, false impressions of invincible power, false religious teachings, false philosophies, false charges, and malicious reports intended to destroy the church"

Coffman
-the dragon's pursuit of the woman begins as soon as he is casted to earth, from Adam and Eve until the end
-"the duration of this persecution is that of the human race itself"
-"the flood is thought to represent 'overwhelming misfortune, every form of destruction and bitter persecutions'....'a great and never-ending stream of vicious and delusive lies'"
With hammer in hand, I began to pull out every nail. Every board I placed beside me on the damp ground. After many years of pouring everything I could into avoiding that way, I found myself walking there once again.

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Re: REVELATION CHAPTER 12

by lappinglivingwater Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:02 am

I wonder if the events that happen in the stars in Revelation 12 are simply a metaphor for the knowledge held in the Bible - the oracles of God to be read by His believers, instead of the astrology that star-worshippers believe in.

You who turn judgment to wormwood, and leave off righteousness in the earth, seek Him Who made the seven stars and Orion, and turns the shadow of death into the morning, and makes the day dark with night: Who calls for the waters of the sea, and pours them out upon the face of the earth: [Yehovah - "the Ever-existing One" - the "I am"] is His name:
~Amos 5:7-8
"Whenever you find any statement in Christian writings which you can make nothing of, do not worry: leave it alone; there will come a day, perhaps years later, when you suddenly see what it meant."
~ C.S. Lewis

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