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REVELATION CHAPTER 11

by ECCENTRICSHEEP Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:24 am

This week we will be discussing REVELATION 11. After you read the chapter, please take time to post….

1. Your favorite passages from Chapter 11
2. Things that challenged you
3. Any special insights that you would like to share with us
4. Any questions that you may have
5. Any related thoughts at all
(This is just a guideline and doesn't have to be followed exactly)

We welcome all opinions and no question is ever a "dumb" question. We want everyone to feel welcome and have the freedom to share whatever they may like. The only thing we ask is that while sharing your opinion, please be respectful to others. In short, disagree without being rude and hurtful. Also, if you are reading these posts and part of the Bible Study but feel like you don't have anything to add or post, we would ask that you please at least check in and post that you are reading with us so that we know you are there. Even when you don't say anything, it is encouraging just knowing that people are in our group with us. We all learn so much from these studies, so with that being said….. LET'S GO!!!!
With hammer in hand, I began to pull out every nail. Every board I placed beside me on the damp ground. After many years of pouring everything I could into avoiding that way, I found myself walking there once again.

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Re: REVELATION CHAPTER 11

by ECCENTRICSHEEP Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:52 am

I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers.


represents preserving God's people...we aren't protected completely from physical danger and struggles on earth, but our souls are in God's hands and protected from hell because we believe so we are his. His seal in on our foreheads. We are measured in the temple of God. We are his. We are preserved. We fight, struggle, and toil during our time on earth, but we will stand victorious at the end.

2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months


those that do not believe are separated. I don't personally take time periods like 42 months literally. it is as Myers says, "equivalent to time, times, and half a time"....which is 3.5, which is half of 7....an incomplete period of time.

3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.” 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.


2 is a number that has come up before, like Matthew Henry talks about:
"It is a sufficient number; for in the mouth of two witnesses every cause shall be established. Christ sent out his disciples two by two, to preach the gospel. Some think these two witnesses are Enoch and Elias, who are to return to the earth for a time: others, the church of the believing Jews and that of the Gentiles: it should rather seem that they are God’s eminent faithful ministers, who shall not only continue to profess the Christian religion, but to preach it, in the worst of times.

There are many theories like Moses and Elijah, Enoch and Elijah, 2 other prophets, 2 groups like Jews and Gentiles for the 2 witnesses. I'm more with Myers that they "represent the faithful church who stands against the powers of evil in a time of great persecution."...going with what that 2 number has stood for. The lampstands calls back to the 7 that represent the church. they also call back to Zechariah 4.

7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.


I don't really put this at a specific point. It happened then when this letter was written, and it still happens now. We testify, Satan tries to stomp us out, God backs us up and revives us, and we stand back up victorious.

Myer said, "the vision represents the church being under persecution and seemingly the world being victorious over the church. the witnesses represent the apostles and prophets of the new testament. as the two witnesses are killed and lay dead in the street, we visualize the church being defeated by the worldly powers. however, that is only the physical picture, the divine picture is that God's church will be victorious. God will revive his people and they will stand vindicated for his cause after the period of persecution."

I'll throw in some more views later.
With hammer in hand, I began to pull out every nail. Every board I placed beside me on the damp ground. After many years of pouring everything I could into avoiding that way, I found myself walking there once again.

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Re: REVELATION CHAPTER 11

by lappinglivingwater Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:56 am

This chapter closes out the trumpets. On a personal note, I believe that we are already in at least the beginning of the fourth trumpet, if not the beginning of the fifth. Or if we are not there, we have very similar circumstances going on. The flaming mountain of Babylon in the third trumpet – “Babylon” in the Hebrew language means “confusion”. And we are living in very confusing times -- fake news -- not knowing what you can believe and what you can’t. It’s the spiritual death of a lot of people. It’s the birth of a very cynical people. Then we get into that cynicism, that bitterness, that wormwood (a bitter poison that makes you feel good) spreading through the streams (the streaming services that about 1/3 to 1/2 of the world have access to today) and again causing the spiritual death of many. As an example, my wife and I tried to watch a few comedy specials for some pretty famous comedians on Netflix, and we’ve stopped the broadcast about 10-15 minutes in on more than one occasion. I love comedy. I love a good laugh, to make people laugh, and good humour. I love it, and always have. But the vitriol that we’ve heard some of these comedians spew just turned us right off. It wasn't funny; it was just bitter.

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
~Matthew 24:12


Heck (and I’ll age myself here), my generation is known for embracing an alternative music culture that had unintelligible lyrics, and was the most profitable period in music since the invention of commercially sold music. (There were things like The Beatles "I am the walrus" (koo-koo-kachoob) before, but the majority of songs had some sort of plot or concept; whereas kooky lyrics were they epitome of the 90s.) The heyday of alternative music in the 1990s, just before Napster was invented and the music industry had to fundamentally change to survive the threat of piracy, was bar-none the most profitable time in music, period. Unprecedented profits. Ridiculously lavish lifestyles. And what were some of the lyrics of some of the most famous songs then?

With the lights out, it's less dangerous
Here we are now, entertain us
I feel stupid and contagious
Here we are now, entertain us
A mulatto, an albino, a mosquito, my libido
~Nirvana, Smells Like Teen Spirit

In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey
Butane in my veins so I'm out to cut the junkie
With the plastic eyeballs, spray paint the vegetables
Dog food stalls with the beefcake pantyhose
Kill the headlights and put it in neutral
Stock car flamin' with a loser and the cruise control
Baby's in Reno with the vitamin D
Got a couple of couches sleep on the love seat…

Soy un perdedor
I'm a loser baby so why don't you kill me?
(Get crazy with the Cheeze Whiz)

Soy un perdedor
I'm a loser baby so why don't you kill me?
(Drive-by body pierce)
~Beck, Loser


You worry about the weather and
Whether or not you should hate
Are you worried about your faith?
Kneel down and obey
You're happy you're in love
You need someone to hate
An ordinary girl, an ordinary waist
But ordinary's just not good enough today

Alone, alone, alone, alone, alone, alone, alone, I'm thinking
Why-ee-I-ee-I-ee, yeah, Superman's dead
Ee-I-ee-I-ee, yeah, is it in my head?
Ee-I-ee-I-ee, yeah, we'll just laugh instead
~Our Lady Peace, Superman's Dead (hey, I'm Canadian here)


There are numerous other examples… but these are nonsensical lyrics. I get it – the artists may know exactly what they are talking about. But audiences generally don’t have a clue. I’ve met very few people who even know what most song lyrics are, or, if they do, have put very much thought into what they mean. They just like the beat, or the flow. I admit I’m part of that group too – and some of the songs I listened to as a teenager because I just didn’t care about what the message was, I can’t listen to today. The music is still great – but I cringe at the message (and that’s not the kind of reaction I’d want to have to music). But this is a serious tangent. To sum up – we live in a confusing time, and many of the streaming services flow with bitter messages. The world’s information dissemination structures are pretty well set up for the false doctrines and false prophecies that the locust army will bring. Like a scorpion, they will grip you in their claws, and inject their poison into you with their tales… I mean tails. They will be aided by the smokescreen of lies from the bottomless pit that darkens the light on the earth (the light of truth, to be able to see what we are doing).

…. Okay. I don’t really have a good segue from that. Onto Chapter 11.

There are a number of OT images that come forth in this chapter. Notably from Ezekiel and Zechariah, but also from others, and also imagery from Christ’s own crucifixion and resurrection.

“The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house [the devil], how much more shall they call they of his household?”
~Matthew 10:24-25


The image of having a reed to measure the Temple of God comes from Ezekiel 40 through 42. Too long to quote, but there a “man” (an “ish” rather than “enosh”, noting an angel in the vision) measures the Temple to make a separation between the sanctified area and the profane. The beautiful part of the image in Ezekiel is that when we see a similar event in Zechariah 2, the measuring angel is stopped to be told that the measure of people that will be in [New] Jerusalem will be as an unwalled city because of the sheer number of people who will be there. (We saw this innumerable number of people around God's throne in Revelation 5.)

Now note in Revelation 11 (and this continues throughout Revelation) that times associated with “Gentiles” (non-believers) is given in “months”, that is moons or the darkness of nights. But times associated with the witnesses (believers) is given in days, that is light. This is not an accident.

But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. You are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore, let’s not sleep, as do others; but let’s watch and be sober.
~1 Thessalonians 5:4-6


Forty-two months (Revelation 11:2) and one thousand two hundred and sixty days (11:3) are both the same amount of time. They are 3.5 years (one half of the seven year tribulation). This period is also given in Daniel.

And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and swore by He Who lives forever that it shall be for a time [1 year], times [plus 2 years], and an half [plus a half year]; and when He shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished…

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolations is set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days [one month past the time in Revelation]. Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days [75 days past the 3.5 year mark].
~Daniel 11:7 & 11-12


We then see the two witnesses as olive trees (sources of holy knowledge, and producing the spiritual fruit of the Holy Spirit) and candlesticks (representing the churches of Revelation 1). These two are described in other areas (as rays of light coming from God’s hand in Habakkuk 3, which I’m reading right now), but most notably in Zechariah:

And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep, and said to me, “What do you see?” And I said, “I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: and two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof…

Then answered I, and said to him, “What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?” And [after he did not answer,] I asked again, and said unto him, “What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?” And he answered me and said, “You do not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” Then he said, “These are the two anointed ones, who stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”
~excerpts from Zechariah 4


This image is very much like what happened on the mount of transfiguration, when Jesus transfigured into His heavenly body, and Moses and Elijah joined Him. And, fittingly enough, the two witnesses in Revelation are as having the power to prevent rain (like Elijah was given – 1 Kings 17:1) and to turn blood to water along with other plagues (like Moses was given – Exodus 7).

The Revelation introduces the image of the two witnesses being killed and put on display in the streets in Jerusalem “where also our Lord was crucified.” Like Jesus, they will remain dead for three and a half days, and then they will come to life, there will be an earthquake, and 7,000 will instantly drop dead. Then the seventh trumpet will sound, transferring all worldly power back to the returning Christ.

This 7,000 dying at the seventh trump has an interesting connection to our OT study this week. When you read Habakkuk 3, it’s set up like a Psalm. (In fact, some scriptural scholars were able to correct the appearance of the Psalms in widely-accepted Bibles because of the structure of Habakkuk 3.) There’s actually a quote from Psalm 18 in it, along with some of the other imagery. Psalm 18 is a revision of the Psalm that David wrote in 2 Samuel 22. And the events leading up to the Psalm are very similar to what’s being described in Revelation 11. There was a 3 year famine. (The two witnesses have the power to cause drought and famine.) To end this famine, David delivered seven of the sons of Saul to Saul’s victims to make amends for Saul’s unholy oppression. The David’s high-ranking officers slew the four sons of Goliath.

Psalm 18, and Habakkuk 3 also both have clear references to the Song of Moses (Deuteronomy 32), which we will also see those who overcome the tribulation sing later in Revelation. And I’d like to leave you with this – I can’t read Psalm 18 without thinking of summer camp, and one of our favourite songs that we would sing there: I Will Call Upon The Lord (link). Enjoy.
"Whenever you find any statement in Christian writings which you can make nothing of, do not worry: leave it alone; there will come a day, perhaps years later, when you suddenly see what it meant."
~ C.S. Lewis

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Re: REVELATION CHAPTER 11

by ECCENTRICSHEEP Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:16 am

Reformation Study Bible:
11:1, 2 The description is reminiscent of the fall of Jerusalem in a.d. 70. Assuming that Revelation was written before a.d. 70, some interpreters see chs. 6–11 or even larger portions of Revelation as prophecy concerning the fall of Jerusalem. But these verses may just as easily be a figure of the preservation of God’s people in the midst of attacks. The temple represents the presence of God on earth, especially through His people (4:1–5:14 note). Measurement signifies God’s knowledge and care (Ezek. 40; 41). The altar and those who worship there represent the true worshipers of God, who are sealed and protected (ch. 7). The destruction of the outer court represents the attack of outsiders on God’s people.

11:2 forty-two months. A time of distress and intense conflict between God’s people and their opponents (13:5). It is also described as 1,260 days (v. 3; 12:6) or “a time, and times, and half a time” (i.e., three and a half years, 12:14). It is half of seven years, which from a symbolic point of view suggests a complete period of suffering, cut short by half. The main background is found in Dan. 7:25, which in turn is related to other passages (Dan. 9:27; 12:7, 11, 12). Some futurist interpreters look for a period of time of this length shortly before the Second Coming. But like other numbers in Revelation, this one may be symbolic in character, relating to the three and a half days in vv. 9, 11. It would then designate a persecution of limited length.

11:3 two witnesses. Possibly two literal individual human beings are in view: either two Christian prophets who were martyred shortly before the fall of Jerusalem, or two prophets who will appear shortly before the Second Coming. But their identification with two lampstands (v. 4) suggests they might be symbolic figures standing for the witness of the lampstand churches of 1:20. If this is the case, they would symbolize churches rather than specific individuals. Two lampstands, rather than seven, are mentioned to imitate the pattern of Zech. 4 and of Moses and Elijah (11:1–14 note; cf. Deut. 17:6; Matt. 17:3, 4; Luke 10:1).

11:8 the great city. This verse suggests to many that ancient Jerusalem is in view throughout this chapter (11:1, 2 note). But the symbolism has many potential applications. The city is the worldly city, representing humanity and human civilization in its rebellion against God. Babel, Sodom, Egypt, Jerusalem, ancient Rome, modern cities, and a final apostasy before the Second Coming are all examples. See Introduction: Interpretive Difficulties and note on 17:1–19:10.
With hammer in hand, I began to pull out every nail. Every board I placed beside me on the damp ground. After many years of pouring everything I could into avoiding that way, I found myself walking there once again.

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Re: REVELATION CHAPTER 11

by lappinglivingwater Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:28 pm

This isn’t a challenge, but just to ask the question. Can you let me know which scholars assert that revelation was written before 70AD? I’m interested in learning how they support that.

Most sources, and especially very early church sources, date it at 95 or 96AD.

[Edit] Sorry, I see it’s from the reformation study Bible. Haven’t been able to find further notes online from that bible to give more on why they would believe it’s from before 70AD.

Here are the notes from the ESV:

Irenaeus reports, on the basis of earlier sources, that “John received the Revelation almost in our own time, toward the end of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 5.30.3). Since Domitian’s reign ended in a.d. 96, most scholars date Revelation in the mid-90s. Some, however, have argued for a date during Nero’s reign (a.d. 54–68) and before the fall of Jerusalem in 70, basing their conclusion in part on the belief that Revelation 11:1–2 is a predictive prophecy of the Roman siege and destruction of the earthly Jerusalem during the Jewish War. However, the conditions in the churches of chs. 2–3 and their cities favor a date around a.d. 95–96, and in Revelation “the holy city” does not seem to refer to the earthly Jerusalem (see note on 11:1–2). Assuming this later date, events relating to Nero’s reign and Jerusalem’s destruction, both of which would now have been in the past, are woven into John’s visions as portents and prototypes of present pressures and coming traumas in the world’s assault on Christ’s church.
Source: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com ... -intro.pdf
"Whenever you find any statement in Christian writings which you can make nothing of, do not worry: leave it alone; there will come a day, perhaps years later, when you suddenly see what it meant."
~ C.S. Lewis

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Re: REVELATION CHAPTER 11

by ECCENTRICSHEEP Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:04 am

lappinglivingwater wrote:This isn’t a challenge, but just to ask the question. Can you let me know which scholars assert that revelation was written before 70AD? I’m interested in learning how they support that.

Most sources, and especially very early church sources, date it at 95 or 96AD.

[Edit] Sorry, I see it’s from the reformation study Bible. Haven’t been able to find further notes online from that bible to give more on why they would believe it’s from before 70AD.

Here are the notes from the ESV:

Irenaeus reports, on the basis of earlier sources, that “John received the Revelation almost in our own time, toward the end of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 5.30.3). Since Domitian’s reign ended in a.d. 96, most scholars date Revelation in the mid-90s. Some, however, have argued for a date during Nero’s reign (a.d. 54–68) and before the fall of Jerusalem in 70, basing their conclusion in part on the belief that Revelation 11:1–2 is a predictive prophecy of the Roman siege and destruction of the earthly Jerusalem during the Jewish War. However, the conditions in the churches of chs. 2–3 and their cities favor a date around a.d. 95–96, and in Revelation “the holy city” does not seem to refer to the earthly Jerusalem (see note on 11:1–2). Assuming this later date, events relating to Nero’s reign and Jerusalem’s destruction, both of which would now have been in the past, are woven into John’s visions as portents and prototypes of present pressures and coming traumas in the world’s assault on Christ’s church.
Source: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com ... -intro.pdf


my stuff is mixed on that, Coffman favors the earlier date, I'll try to paraphrase his reasons real quick. His stuff is from 1979.

1. weird one, he just trusts the opinions of the earlier scholars of the 19th century
2. "the late date in the times of Domitian relies almost totally upon a single quotation from Irenaeus which is not necessarily that reliable, being quite ambiguous also."
3. in 96ad, or thereabouts, John would have been in his 90's
4. there is no hint whatever in Revelation of the destruction of Jerusalem
5. the conditions in the "seven churches" addressed in the introduction to the prophecy indicate that Jewish persecution was still being suffered by Christians."
6. the alleged "storm of persecution" under Domitian is very questionable and rests upon very slender and precarious evidence.
7. the tradition that John was banished by Domitian is not deformative.
8. basically says the Nero Redivivus Myth doesn't support anything
With hammer in hand, I began to pull out every nail. Every board I placed beside me on the damp ground. After many years of pouring everything I could into avoiding that way, I found myself walking there once again.

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Re: REVELATION CHAPTER 11

by lappinglivingwater Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:51 pm

Interesting. So he places John as the same age as Jesus.
"Whenever you find any statement in Christian writings which you can make nothing of, do not worry: leave it alone; there will come a day, perhaps years later, when you suddenly see what it meant."
~ C.S. Lewis

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