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1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by Kevin Young Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:49 am

This week we will be discussing 1 Timothy Chapter 2. After you read the chapter, please take time to post….

1. Your favorite passages from Chapter 2
2. Things that challenged you
3. Any special insights that you would like to share with us
4. Any questions that you may have
5. Any related thoughts at all
(This is just a guideline and doesn't have to be followed exactly)

We welcome all opinions and no question is ever a "dumb" question. We want everyone to feel welcome and have the freedom to share whatever they may like. The only thing we ask is that while sharing your opinion, please be respectful to others. In short, disagree without being rude and hurtful. Also, if you are reading these posts and part of the Bible Study but feel like you don't have anything to add or post, we would ask that you please at least check in and post that you are reading with us so that we know you are there. Even when you don't say anything, it is encouraging just knowing that people are in our group with us. We all learn so much from these studies, so with that being said….. LET'S GO!!!!
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by Kevin Young Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:18 am

This Chapter is always going to be a controversial one because of the what is says about women. I will talk about the other stuff later, but since I only have a little bit of time this morning I will devote my post to what this chapter says about women. I have studied these verses a few times and here is my take on them.....

11Women should learn quietly and submissively. 12I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly. 13For God made Adam first, and afterward he made Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived by Satan. The woman was deceived, and sin was the result. 15But women will be saved through childbearing,assuming they continue to live in faith, love, holiness, and modesty.


The greek word for woman here is "gunē" (goo-nay'). Greek dictionary defines gunē as: a woman; spec a wife: - wife, woman. I think this is extremely important because it helps us understand a little more clearly what Paul is saying and lines up contextually with what Paul says about women/wives throughout the New Testament.

This word gunē is often interchangeable with the word "wife."
-1 Cor 7:2 "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife." Wife there is gunē
-1 Cor 7:10 "Let not the wife (gunē) depart from her husband"
-Eph 5:22-24 "Wives (gunē), submit yourselves unto your own husbands. For the husband is the head of the wife (gunē), even as Christ is the head of the church. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives (gunē) be to their own husbands in every thing."
-Eph. 5:31 "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife (gunē), and they two shall be one flesh."
-Col 3:18 "Wives (gunē), submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord"
Titus 1:6 "....the husband of one wife (gunē)"
1 Peter 3:1-2 "In the same way, you wives (gunē) must accept the authority of your husbands. Then, even if some refuse to obey the Good News, your godly lives will speak to them without any words. They will be won over by observing your pure and reverent lives.

I could go on and on with these examples, but this one is most interesting. In the very next chapter of 1 Timothy and literally only 3 verses from where gunē is translated woman, we see gunē instead being translated as wife in 1 Tim 3:2 .... "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife (gunē)." So you see, it really is at the discretion of the translator to decide whether to use the word wife or woman for the greek word gunē. We must remember that this book was written almost 2,000 years ago in a different language. And most of the time that this word was used it is referencing a married woman; literally wife.

So that being said 1 Timothy 2:11-12 could read like this.... "WIVES should learn quietly and submissively. I do not let WIVES teach HUSBANDS or have authority over them." When you read it like this, it lines up with all of the rest of the scriptures concerning Wives and Husbands and the husband having authority over the wife.

The King James says 1 Timothy 2:12 the woman (gunē) was to be in silence. The NIV says to be quiet. There is also a reference to women (gunē) being quiet church in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35. Now I could be wrong, but I believe this is referring to wives, and is also referring to being chatty in church. In Cor. 14 Paul is trying to establish order in the Corinthian church because they were out of control in their services. But I don't think he was telling women to be quiet in general... cause check this out. If he wanted women to be quiet, then why did he give them instructions on how to properly prophesy (or literally speak the Word of God) just 3 chapters earlier in 1 Cor 11:5. Even Jesus encouraged women to speak. The first person he appeared to was a woman (Mary Magdalene). And he told her to "Go.... to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ " Jesus had no problem telling a woman to speak here. I could go on with examples here too, but because of time, I will leave it at these two.

In Christ we are one. We see that here in Galatians 3:26-28 "26So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

So I am of the belief that whenever the Bible talks about man's authority over woman; that the Bible is specifically speaking of a husband's authority over a wife. Because we can clearly see here in Galatians 3 that we are one in Christ, and that there is no male and female. We are free.

So why is there authority with husband over wife anyway? This is my opinion. The husband and wife is the model that God created to have a family and produce children. I don't care how secular or mainstream the psychologist... they all will agree that a child is more emotionally stable and healthy in a home that has a mother and a father. And God hates divorce. Why? You will find the answer very interesting. In Malachi 2:15-16 it says, "15Didn’t the lord make you one with your wife? In body and spirit you are his. And what does he want? Godly children from your union. So guard your heart; remain loyal to the wife of your youth. 16“For I hate divorce!”

What does God want? Godly children. What is God's model for accomplishing this goal? A husband and wife.... a father and mother. That is why I believe authority is important.

When looking at the New Testament in context, I believe God indeed wants women to be roaring like lions and not timid little weaklings. But he does have an established authority for the family. For the family is the best place for discipleship and legacy. And we want to leave a legacy of godliness for the generations that go on after us. And the best way for us to do that..... is through our children.
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by ECCENTRICSHEEP Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:28 am

There was some parts Paul talks about how to look that I take more are either fitting in the the people around them when it helps the gospel...and not being like them at all when it helps the gospel. I just woke up so I can't function enough to find verses lol. But its true...sometimes being a part of the group can help the gospel when people see you are human just like them....but sometimes standing up and not doing what the world is doing is what will help the gospel more.

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.


Paul talks respecting authority more than once. Here he's say to pray for authority. God made authority....I will say it again GOD MADE AUTHORITY. There is some absolute disrespect for authority in this country brewing....especially for the police. God created that authority to take care of you.

In Dallas there was a shooting where police got targeted....and you know why the police were out there at all? They were PROTECTING a group of protestors....protestors that were PROTESTING THEM (it was a peaceful protest again some police shootings recently)! They were protecting people protesting them and some of them died because of it.

Yeah...we are called to pray for them and respect them.

8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. 9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.


I definitely see this as a "don't be like the worldly woman around you" point here.

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.


Not on topic here really....as a female myself I think feminism is embarrassing. God created men and woman differently for a reason....just like he creates us all differently to do different tasks. God wants men to lead....look at how people fall apart when the father is absent and not leading his family? There is a lot of problems with people that come back to the father not being around....the man not leading not God called him to do. I have 2 addicts for father figures...I can see the way it shaped me not having that normal father around. Woman were made to nurture in a way men weren't....and many woman are rejecting those God given traits and claiming "my body my rights" and throwing children away like garbage to have that stupid choice. A lot of woman are on this mission for more rights and in my opinion they are doing it wrong because they are poisoned with pride and rejecting what God created them to be.

I'm not saying woman should all stay at home with kids....look at me I'm a 33 and have no kids. I'm just saying God creates us for certain purposes and we might not like all of God's plans....but God is all knowing and knows what is best....the good and the bad that happens to us. And look at what happens when people reject God's purposes and plans for us. Families are broken, people are broken, and human life loses its value.


Well that got a little bit long....

I have stuff from McGee I want to post, but i read this chapter like a week ago so I'll have to scan over it again real quick....
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by ECCENTRICSHEEP Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:26 am

this chapter is a welcomed distraction from all the horrible and dark "wishing for death" thoughts in my head right now....

Stuff from J. Vernon McGree:

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.


"We need to pray for our country, and we need to pray for those who have authority over us. If you are a Republican and a Democrat is in office, pray for him. If you are a Democrat and a Republican is in office, pray for him.

"For Kings" Paul says we are to pray for the kings who rule. You may ask, "Yes, but are we to pray when the government is a corrupt one?" Paul is saying we are to pray even if its a corrupt government. We are to pray for whoever is in power. Remember that the man who was in power in Rome when Paul wrote was bloody Nero, yet he says we are to pray for kings, whoever they are.

3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.


"It is not important for you and me to get a certain man elected to office. I have never in my ministry recommended a candidate for office. I am not called to do that, and I don't believe any minister is. I am to pray for our leaders regardless of who they are in order that the gospel can go out. I want a man in office who is going to make it possible for the Word of God to continue to be given to the lost. This should be our concern and prayer."

6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.


" 'Ransom' is antilutron in the Greek, and it means a 'redemption price'. Christ paid a price for our redemption. We needed to be redeemed--you and I were lost sinners, and He was the ransom."

8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. 9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.


"Let's establish first that God has used women. In the Word of God we see Deborah, Queen Esther, Ruth, and others. In church history, we find women like Mary Fletcher and Priscilla Gurney. There are multitudes of others whom God has used in a wonderful way.

However, in the Roman world the female principle was a part of all the heathen religions, and women occupied a prominent place. The worship of Aphrodite at Corinth was probably one of the most immoral in which prostitution was actually made into a religion. The thousand vestal virgins who were in the temple of Aphrodite on top of the Acropolis there in Corinth were nothing in the world but prostitutes. They were characterized by very disheveled hair. The reason God said that women should have her head covered was so she would not be associated at all with religions like this. Also, in Ephesus where Timothy was at this time, women occupied a very prominent position in the worship at the temple of Diana. In all the mystery religions there were priestesses. It is because of these heathen practices that Paul is emphasizing in this passage that this matter of sex is not to enter into the public prayer in the services of the Christian churches. We need to approach this passage with these factors in mind."
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by WanderingStar Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:11 pm

Kevin Young wrote:The King James says 1 Timothy 2:12 the woman (gunē) was to be in silence. The NIV says to be quiet. There is also a reference to women (gunē) being quiet church in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35. Now I could be wrong, but I believe this is referring to wives, and is also referring to being chatty in church. In Cor. 14 Paul is trying to establish order in the Corinthian church because they were out of control in their services. But I don't think he was telling women to be quiet in general... cause check this out. If he wanted women to be quiet, then why did he give them instructions on how to properly prophesy (or literally speak the Word of God) just 3 chapters earlier in 1 Cor 11:5. Even Jesus encouraged women to speak. The first person he appeared to was a woman (Mary Magdalene). And he told her to "Go.... to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ " Jesus had no problem telling a woman to speak here. I could go on with examples here too, but because of time, I will leave it at these two.


This is super important to me. Important enough to drag me out of my usual "lurk around the boards and don't post" habits.

I think Kevin pretty well nailed it above. I come from a background where this passage was taken massively, damagingly out of context. At the church I was required to attend as a teenager, girls weren't allowed to pray in front of men, weren't allowed to witness to men, weren't allowed to share their personal thoughts or beliefs about Christianity if men were present, weren't supposed to get official Bible education (those of you who know me know how well that went over with me, haha). I had a really close guy friend as a teenager (now my husband), and we used to have to sneak around behind my parents' backs... to pray for each other. All of that damaging system was born out of misreading this passage.

I also think it's extremely important to be aware of the cultural context surrounding passages like this, as Kevin already touched on. The early church was in a situation where they had to kind of "prove" themselves in a way, prove to the rest of the world that they were valid and meant what they said. Imagine if you have a bunch of chatty wives gossiping while a church service is taking place; no one is going to take that seriously. I think the instructions directly before, in verses 9 and 10, are for a similar purpose. If church women were paying lip service to the idea of serving the poor but then showing up decked out in expensive clothes, it was likely going to seem a little hypocritical. A lot of scholars also believe that Paul was referencing the way prostitutes both acted and dressed in this passage, as Courtney posted some information about, which makes his directions make sense. It would be damaging on a lot of levels to the early church if women were showing up behaving in ways that would instantly align them with the behavior of prostitutes. There are some pretty solid arguments that many of his other instructions (for example, 1 Corinthians 11 and how it talks about hair) are offered for the same reason.

For more reading on specific women leaders who are affirmed in the early church: in Acts 18, Priscilla and Aquila are always listed together as partners in Paul's ministry. In 2 John, although there is debate about her exact role, it's abundantly clear that the letter is written to a woman considered significant in the church. In Romans 16, Paul references several significant women in the church (fun fact: some early translations actually altered some of the names, notably Junia, to try and make it seem like they were dudes). I could go on. However we read 1 Timothy 2, it's abundantly clear that we need to do so in light of the fact that elsewhere Paul lists women in the church who he respects over and over again.

I'm going to get fully real though: I have no clue on verse 15. I've done a fair amount of research on it, but frankly need to do more, because I absolutely don't understand it. I think it's going to be one of those cases where I get to heaven, raise my eyebrow at Paul and say "really?" There will be quite a few of those moments I think. ;)
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by jrowe3737 Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:21 pm

Thank you, Kevin, for that post! I had always wondered about what the original text said, but hadn't had the time to look it up. I love that you took the time to explain this to us. The language nerd in me is super happy right now! As a German teacher, I know certain things cannot translate the same way from German to English. Some words are more economical, like the word Frau. This word can mean "woman", "wife", or "Mrs." Depending upon the words around it. Like "the woman" or "my wife" or "Mrs Smith" ... interestingly i decided to look up the word choice in the German translation. They chose a word that isn't much used in everyday language, so I'm told. Their word (Weib) means something like "female" though technically it does mean "woman." However, my male friends said if you ever were to call your girlfriend that, you'd get smacked! (You see, many girls are called "woman (Frau)" after 16 years of age) Anyhow, it apparently has the connotation of a possession. Like almost caveman like "my woman". It is possible, that maybe you are right. I think your other evidence supports it too. Like how men and women are equal in Gods eyes and both can prophesy. Thanks again for the post. It answered some of my questions and concerns that maybe there was a bit of contradiction. Guess I need to learn Greek and Hebrew!
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by ECCENTRICSHEEP Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:44 pm

Okay I'm gonna ramble...so y'all can skip this part if you want lol :P

I grew up in Church of Christ churches...conservative ones...because there's more liberal ones around here that are not like the ones I grew up in. The men absolutely are the main leaders like in services and through the duties of deacons and elders. But the woman always had very important roles that were around nurturing and caring for the members....hmmm like that's what they were created to do :). Like with children and teaching the children's classes and comforting those struggling. And welcoming new people always falls on both males and females for sure. There are for sure very very important roles that women have always led from my experience. Even though the men lead service, singing, and prayers....where would some of us be without the amazing caring women who do just as important work that's not on that stage?

Then again...I have never wanted to be up front leading any part of service, I have always been like "thank goodness I'm female so I don't have to go up there!" lol :P

I'm more about focusing on the part of the man stepping up than the woman feeling like she is stepping down. Because she is absolutely not stepping down. That nurturing nature she was born with is so so so important and vital to this world! Where would those men be without their mothers? Those men become those amazing leaders BECAUSE of the women in their lives! Men were created to lead though. Like I said...things start to fall apart when the men stop leading...especially their families. Single mothers do an amazing job absolutely....but that missing leading male in families in this world has surely left damage.

Sorry to ramble on that again...that missing father in families is a big issue in my opinion...

Wherever God wants us...be it up front or in the background....whatever task he has for all of us is vital and important. He created us all specifically for that task. Everything we have been through is to prepare us for that task. Whatever is has for you to do is an honor...it doesn't matter how many people see what you do because God sees it all.

(now I have been to services with women as part of the worship team...oh my gosh if my dearly departed grandmother could have led singing during church....well she sang really loud so it would have become more about her singing than the whole church singing..."Now Lettye you're suppose to just lead singing we need to be able to hear everyone else" lol :P....love you Nana, miss you always)
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by Leah Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:33 pm

Kevin Young wrote:This Chapter is always going to be a controversial one because of the what is says about women. I will talk about the other stuff later, but since I only have a little bit of time this morning I will devote my post to what this chapter says about women. I have studied these verses a few times and here is my take on them.....

11Women should learn quietly and submissively. 12I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly. 13For God made Adam first, and afterward he made Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived by Satan. The woman was deceived, and sin was the result. 15But women will be saved through childbearing,assuming they continue to live in faith, love, holiness, and modesty.


The greek word for woman here is "gunē" (goo-nay'). Greek dictionary defines gunē as: a woman; spec a wife: - wife, woman. I think this is extremely important because it helps us understand a little more clearly what Paul is saying and lines up contextually with what Paul says about women/wives throughout the New Testament.

This word gunē is often interchangeable with the word "wife."
-1 Cor 7:2 "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife." Wife there is gunē
-1 Cor 7:10 "Let not the wife (gunē) depart from her husband"
-Eph 5:22-24 "Wives (gunē), submit yourselves unto your own husbands. For the husband is the head of the wife (gunē), even as Christ is the head of the church. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives (gunē) be to their own husbands in every thing."
-Eph. 5:31 "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife (gunē), and they two shall be one flesh."
-Col 3:18 "Wives (gunē), submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord"
Titus 1:6 "....the husband of one wife (gunē)"
1 Peter 3:1-2 "In the same way, you wives (gunē) must accept the authority of your husbands. Then, even if some refuse to obey the Good News, your godly lives will speak to them without any words. They will be won over by observing your pure and reverent lives.

I could go on and on with these examples, but this one is most interesting. In the very next chapter of 1 Timothy and literally only 3 verses from where gunē is translated woman, we see gunē instead being translated as wife in 1 Tim 3:2 .... "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife (gunē)." So you see, it really is at the discretion of the translator to decide whether to use the word wife or woman for the greek word gunē. We must remember that this book was written almost 2,000 years ago in a different language. And most of the time that this word was used it is referencing a married woman; literally wife.

So that being said 1 Timothy 2:11-12 could read like this.... "WIVES should learn quietly and submissively. I do not let WIVES teach HUSBANDS or have authority over them." When you read it like this, it lines up with all of the rest of the scriptures concerning Wives and Husbands and the husband having authority over the wife.

The King James says 1 Timothy 2:12 the woman (gunē) was to be in silence. The NIV says to be quiet. There is also a reference to women (gunē) being quiet church in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35. Now I could be wrong, but I believe this is referring to wives, and is also referring to being chatty in church. In Cor. 14 Paul is trying to establish order in the Corinthian church because they were out of control in their services. But I don't think he was telling women to be quiet in general... cause check this out. If he wanted women to be quiet, then why did he give them instructions on how to properly prophesy (or literally speak the Word of God) just 3 chapters earlier in 1 Cor 11:5. Even Jesus encouraged women to speak. The first person he appeared to was a woman (Mary Magdalene). And he told her to "Go.... to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ " Jesus had no problem telling a woman to speak here. I could go on with examples here too, but because of time, I will leave it at these two.

In Christ we are one. We see that here in Galatians 3:26-28 "26So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

So I am of the belief that whenever the Bible talks about man's authority over woman; that the Bible is specifically speaking of a husband's authority over a wife. Because we can clearly see here in Galatians 3 that we are one in Christ, and that there is no male and female. We are free.

So why is there authority with husband over wife anyway? This is my opinion. The husband and wife is the model that God created to have a family and produce children. I don't care how secular or mainstream the psychologist... they all will agree that a child is more emotionally stable and healthy in a home that has a mother and a father. And God hates divorce. Why? You will find the answer very interesting. In Malachi 2:15-16 it says, "15Didn’t the lord make you one with your wife? In body and spirit you are his. And what does he want? Godly children from your union. So guard your heart; remain loyal to the wife of your youth. 16“For I hate divorce!”

What does God want? Godly children. What is God's model for accomplishing this goal? A husband and wife.... a father and mother. That is why I believe authority is important.

When looking at the New Testament in context, I believe God indeed wants women to be roaring like lions and not timid little weaklings. But he does have an established authority for the family. For the family is the best place for discipleship and legacy. And we want to leave a legacy of godliness for the generations that go on after us. And the best way for us to do that..... is through our children.


I love what you said here, Kevin. Another thing that has really brought this passage to light for me is that in the culture at that time, the women were not allowed to even have an education and were really looked down on. The fact that Paul was telling them to learn was a new idea and a big step in the right direction.
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by ECCENTRICSHEEP Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:56 pm

And here's what J Vernon McGee said about verse 15:

"It was the sin of Eve that brought sin into the world. Now every time a woman bears a child, she brings a sinner into the world---that is all she can bring into the world. But Mary brought the Lord Jesus, the Savior into the world. So how are women saved? By childbearing---because Mary brought the Savior into the world. Don't ever say that woman brought sin into the world, unless you are prepared to add that woman also brought the Savior into the world. My friend, no man provided a Savior; a woman did. However, each individual woman is saved by faith, the same as each man is saved by faith. She is to grow in love and holiness just as a man is."

((you may insert "I am no man!!" from LOTR up there if you wish :P))
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by lappinglivingwater Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:13 pm

I personally don't believe Paul is referring to gender at all here. The whole letter is about leadership and how to lead a church. Timothy is Paul's most advanced student and is very familiar with prophetic, symbolic, metaphoric language. So I personally believe that Adam is being described as a metaphor for the authority over Eve, his congregation - just as the "last Adam", Jesus Christ, also has a bride, the church, His congregation. So when I read it, I simply read that the congregation should not have rule over the head of the congregation, just as the church does not have rule over Christ. But I've never heard anyone else say they read the scripture this way, so take it as you will. Kevin clearly pointed out where Paul says there is neither male or female in Christ, but we are all one. One spiritual bride.

As to the part speaking about modest apparel. Spiritually, I think we all should be modest, male and female. God doesn't need a big sexy show to get people into the church. Nadab and Abihu, Aaron's sons (Leviticus 10), tried to make the altar ceremonies sexy and flashy and God struck them dead for it. God doesn't need over the top embellishments added to His gospel to get people into the church. It cheapens the price that was paid for us, and the beauty of His love for us.

My own pastor doesn't teach Timothy this way, but he does point out that people overplay and overlord this chapter in the church and that he doesn't like it when that happens. So he points out that there were plenty of women given great respect in both new and old testaments. Timothy's own mother and grandmother are given great respect in the next letter to him. In Judges, Barack wouldn't even go to war if Deborah, a prophetess, wasn't leading the charge against the enemy (Judges 4). When Josiah's servants found the book of the law in the treasury, they had to get Huldah, a prophetess, to teach them what it meant (2 Kings 22). And if you remember how in Daniel 12, the prophecies of the end times expressly stated that those who understand end times prophecies will teach those who don't understand (Daniel 11:33), Joel clarifies that it will be both sons and daughters who understand will prophesy (teach) in those days (Joel 2:28-29). And they shall. God is not against women - women have an awesome part to play in the days that lie ahead.

If anyone wants to hear my pastor's lecture on this chapter, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QFj4EndU9M
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by lappinglivingwater Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:26 pm

jrowe3737 wrote:Guess I need to learn Greek and Hebrew!


A Strong's Concordance is an awesome tool for this! I use Blue Letter Bible a lot for this (but also have a physical copy of the Strong's). Their lexicons are particularly helpful!
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My posts reflect what I believe; please don't take them as me telling you what you have to believe - your time in study and prayer will tell you that.
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by Angel_Seneca Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:19 pm

As I read through verses 9-15, I was given a different perspective on how I should live my current lifestyle as a Christian. Before I was saved, I never really cared about anything because I was too silent and was on the brink of becoming someone I'm not. After I was saved, so much changed within me. Now I wonder if I should stay silent according to this chapter. I'm really modest with what I wear and I really don't mind the jewelry that I have. With the other steps, I don't know if I should follow them because I'm not a mom and I'm not married (I'm only 22). Whereas being silent, I've been that way for too long. I want my voice to be heard, but in a way that pleases the Lord.


I still have a lot to learn in order for my faith to be strong.
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by lappinglivingwater Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:43 am

I would implore people to be careful with what this chapter says again. It is not telling people to keep their mouths shut all of the time. It's talking about running a church, leadership, and conduct in church. Paul is giving Timothy advice on how to run a church. It really makes me sad to see women read this chapter and then think that God has something against them because of what it says. God loves you - and there are so many other places in the Bible that balance and give context to what this chapter is saying.

In regards to staying silent - everyone should stay silent when a sermon is being given. It's rude to speak during a sermon. But the New Testament message is not that women should stay silent all of the time. How can I document that? Take a look at Acts, on the day of pentacost, when Peter said,

This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; "'And it shall come to pass in the last days', says God, 'I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: and on My servants and on My handmaidens I will pour out in those days of My Spirit; and they shall prophesy: and I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: and it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
~Acts 2:16-21



Some of that prophecy is still future from now. It would be difficult for daughters and handmaidens to prophesy if the overall message of the Bible was to keep quiet all of the time.

Also, later on in Acts, Philip's four virgin daughters were prophetesses and evangelists (Acts 21:9). This would also be difficult to accomplish if they were to be quiet.

So the overall message I get from this chapter - which I would apply to both men and women - is not to dress like a prostitute (which mirrors what God had commanded about His Temple in the Old Testament, was applicable to and separately stated for BOTH men and women (Deuteronomy 23:18) because other religions used to use prostitutes to raise money for their temples, but God does not want that for Christianity) and to keep quiet during a church service (Ecclesiastes 5:1-3).

However, Solomon states in Proverbs that a wise person, man or woman, is good at keeping quiet and listening all of the time (Proverbs 13:3; James 3:6). No gender is preferred in that wisdom.

It's also important to study the entire Bible, not the New Testament only, to get the full context of God's instructions for the church. Paul teaches from the Old Testament laws and prophets a lot in these New Testament letters - sometimes for audience specific purposes - so it is important to be able to cite where Paul is teaching from, and how it applies to the overall church. As Paul will instruct Timothy in the next letter:

Study to shew yourself approved unto God, a worker that does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing [separating and applying] the word of truth.
~2 Timothy 2:15
"If you can believe, all things are possible to the person who believes."
~Mark 9:23

My posts reflect what I believe; please don't take them as me telling you what you have to believe - your time in study and prayer will tell you that.
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by ECCENTRICSHEEP Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:35 am

This is splendid...especially since I wouldn't have hushed up anyway lol. Oh no that means you are all stuck with my rambles :P.
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by ECCENTRICSHEEP Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:25 am

The thought that I always get from this chapter....probably not totally on subject, but its where my mind happens to go....this is for anyone be it male or female...."well, say God does want you to have a background supporting role instead of a leading role on stage, will you accept it? will you accept the place God wants you to be?"

But I struggle with that a little so maybe God pulls out that question just for me, I don't know...

Which is ridiculous to struggle with since the place God place is perfectly fits me, what I have experienced, and my "talents"...but still....when you see other people receive far more attention and praise while they are on that stage while I pour my heart out to the point of tears sometimes and feel like I receive nothing....you can tell yourself God sees all your work all you want....but you can still struggle with it at times.
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by daniraedeisher Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:43 pm

ECCENTRICSHEEP wrote:=
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.


Not on topic here really....as a female myself I think feminism is embarrassing. God created men and woman differently for a reason....just like he creates us all differently to do different tasks. God wants men to lead....look at how people fall apart when the father is absent and not leading his family? There is a lot of problems with people that come back to the father not being around....the man not leading not God called him to do. I have 2 addicts for father figures...I can see the way it shaped me not having that normal father around. Woman were made to nurture in a way men weren't....and many woman are rejecting those God given traits and claiming "my body my rights" and throwing children away like garbage to have that stupid choice. A lot of woman are on this mission for more rights and in my opinion they are doing it wrong because they are poisoned with pride and rejecting what God created them to be.


Thank you for explaining this so well! My gut instinct is to be offended by verses like this, but then I'm reminded that God has a purpose in mind for us, and we can definitely be nurturing and godly examples, even if we aren't mothers. If we do things God's way, they will always go better than when we value human opinion over godly wisdom.
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by ECCENTRICSHEEP Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:32 am

Oh, and notice I didn't say anything about whether a woman should work or not...that is absolutely has nothing to do with it because the amazing characteristics of nurturing and caring can show themselves in all situations....with or without children.

I'm not even sure how on topic all that is, its just something I've thought of while watching how the world is going over my years of life. And when men reject their leadership role in the family and women reject that selfless nurturing role things fall apart and are falling apart before our eyes. And both need the other growing up...boys need amazing nurturing mothers and women and girls need good father figures and leaders. I know for a fact that many of my negative characteristics were shaped by having addicts for father figures growing up (and our amazing God prepared the way ahead and also sent amazing big brother figures in my life in place of the father figures who might have failed me so many times).

There was a video I saw on facebook of this mother rabbit killing this big snake that was trying to get her babies, now that's what women were created to be! That little rabbit was going to kill that snake that was way bigger than her for messing with her babies, and she was winning! There is power in that incredibly selfless loving nature that much of the world has forgotten in their pride.

So we should embrace the amazing features God built into us no matter what they are, because God placed them there for a purpose.

Well here I go again....I'm way passionate about this so once I start I can't shut up lol. I love it when kids get to meet Disciple, more than me getting to talk to them the few times a year I get to. That picture of Kevin talking to the kids at the one festival (Uprise?) through the fence....that picture makes me cry. I would give up a lifetime of Disciple shows so that kids who need Disciple would get to see them and talk to them.

Okay I'm done rambling i swear lol!
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by Columbia Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:47 pm

There are several schools of thought on the biblical role of women in the church. It may be worth considering the fact that there are no recorded instances of female church leadership in the New Testament. This is in contrast against the civil system of the day. Over the years, I have developed some thoughts about this. #1 - Women are not inferior to men. We are both created in the image of God and are equally saved as believers. Many women are far better in administrative organization and in speaking than are many men. #2 - It is really not a matter of ability nor marital status. My wife is much better than me at some things. Yet, the Lord has put the responsibility for the function of our home squarely on my shoulders. This is the same in the church. #3 - It is not a matter of who is best qualified. It is a matter of obeying God, in functioning against the grain of our society, as the church. Women are to be held in high honor in the church. We could not get along without them. It is significant that the word for "wife" is used throughout the text. Yet it is seldom translated that way for a good reason. That reason is because of the weight of the surrounding vocabulary as it relates to translation. Where the reference is made to "husband of one wife," in concept, actually refers to a one woman man. Biblical concepts are important. Many men who have been married to only one woman may actually not be a one woman man. This is a heart issue rather than a civil status issue. A one woman man may not necessarily be married. Yet there is a unique role pattern in the church that God does not demand from civil society. Although we are not to make women the lackeys of the church, there should be a contrast that is unmistakable to the world. The Christian home and the church are to function in a unique way. Women are off the hook, where overall responsibility is concerned, but get stuck submitting to sometimes foolish male leaders. Voice, yes. Executive powers, no. The old saying that the man may be the head but the wife is the neck that turns the head is appropriate. The same can be said of the church. There is nothing more potentially dangerous to a male pastor than the ladies' prayer meeting! We follow God's pattern but recognize the realities of the situation. Women can make very dynamic spiritual leaders. However, I believe they flourish best when women lead women.
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by sassy1506 Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:47 am

I've been loving all the discussion on this one! You guys rock.

I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
1 Timothy 2:9‭-‬10 NIV


These two verses are fantastic. I've been guilty of just skimming over the chapter and glancing over verse 9 as a sort of checklist. Then completely missing the point of verse 10. I mean, some sort of physical modesty is important. But if we focus on being set apart by the way we dress as opposed to the way we serve, that's superficial and completely misses the point of not following the ways of the world.

I know I'm just reiterating what some of you have already said, but I think it's important enough to say again.


ECCENTRICSHEEP wrote:The thought that I always get from this chapter....probably not totally on subject, but its where my mind happens to go....this is for anyone be it male or female...."well, say God does want you to have a background supporting role instead of a leading role on stage, will you accept it? will you accept the place God wants you to be?"


This. This has been hitting home for me a lot over the past couple of months.

I never actually thought that I'd live to graduate high school and face the "real world". When I began to consider the possibility that those things might happen, I always saw myself having a role on that stage... Then I had that role for two months; I began to realize how easy it was for me to slip into an apathetic mindset. As much as it hurts to admit, I'm not cut out to be performing on a regular basis at this point in my life.

But God went and put me on the path I need to be on right now. At some point He may decide I'm ready to spend my life on that stage. But for now, I need to focus on strengthening my relationship with Him while serving in the background.


ECCENTRICSHEEP wrote:Well here I go again....I'm way passionate about this so once I start I can't shut up lol. I love it when kids get to meet Disciple, more than me getting to talk to them the few times a year I get to. That picture of Kevin talking to the kids at the one festival (Uprise?) through the fence....that picture makes me cry. I would give up a lifetime of Disciple shows so that kids who need Disciple would get to see them and talk to them.


This one really hit home with me. Five years ago, I was one of those kids who desperately needed Disciple. Over the past year or so, I've noticed that shows have started to feel different than they used to. It wasn't until last night that I completely realized why... I don't need Disciple the way I did when they came into my life. I'll always love them to pieces. They're still incredibly important people in my life. I'll always value their opinions and advice. But there are so many kids standing where I was that need them so much more than I do now. I'm glad I can step aside.
-Sam

"Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you" -James 4:7
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by lappinglivingwater Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:44 am

Columbia wrote:It may be worth considering the fact that there are no recorded instances of female church leadership in the New Testament.


I need to challenge this statement here, Jerry. Paul is talking about women teaching in this chapter-- and there are several recorded instances of women teaching in the New Testament. And not only that, but I believe one clear reference to a woman church leader.

The first person to teach people in the temple that the Messiah had come was not a man, but a woman and a prophetess, Anna (Luke 2). Paul's close friend Priscilla, Aquila's wife, also taught Apollos about Christ (Acts 18:26). Philip's four virgin daughters were also prophetesses and evangelists (Acts 21:8-9).

Since we are in the letter to Timothy, who taught Timothy about God? His father? Nothing is said about his father. But Paul notes that Timothy's mother and grandmother first had the faith that Paul also believes was in Timothy (2 Timothy 1:5). To me, this certainly implies that they taught Timothy about the Lord, preparing him to be Paul's most beloved student.

Finally, when John writes his second epistle, the letter to "the elect lady", it certainly sounds as though he is writing to a church leader.

These are all New Testament instances of women teaching, which is leadership to me. I guess I'm having a hard time understanding what you meant by the comment.
"If you can believe, all things are possible to the person who believes."
~Mark 9:23

My posts reflect what I believe; please don't take them as me telling you what you have to believe - your time in study and prayer will tell you that.
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