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ECCENTRICSHEEP
 
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by ECCENTRICSHEEP Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:08 pm

sassy1506 wrote:I've been loving all the discussion on this one! You guys rock.

I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
1 Timothy 2:9‭-‬10 NIV


These two verses are fantastic. I've been guilty of just skimming over the chapter and glancing over verse 9 as a sort of checklist. Then completely missing the point of verse 10. I mean, some sort of physical modesty is important. But if we focus on being set apart by the way we dress as opposed to the way we serve, that's superficial and completely misses the point of not following the ways of the world.

I know I'm just reiterating what some of you have already said, but I think it's important enough to say again.


ECCENTRICSHEEP wrote:The thought that I always get from this chapter....probably not totally on subject, but its where my mind happens to go....this is for anyone be it male or female...."well, say God does want you to have a background supporting role instead of a leading role on stage, will you accept it? will you accept the place God wants you to be?"


This. This has been hitting home for me a lot over the past couple of months.

I never actually thought that I'd live to graduate high school and face the "real world". When I began to consider the possibility that those things might happen, I always saw myself having a role on that stage... Then I had that role for two months; I began to realize how easy it was for me to slip into an apathetic mindset. As much as it hurts to admit, I'm not cut out to be performing on a regular basis at this point in my life.

But God went and put me on the path I need to be on right now. At some point He may decide I'm ready to spend my life on that stage. But for now, I need to focus on strengthening my relationship with Him while serving in the background.


ECCENTRICSHEEP wrote:Well here I go again....I'm way passionate about this so once I start I can't shut up lol. I love it when kids get to meet Disciple, more than me getting to talk to them the few times a year I get to. That picture of Kevin talking to the kids at the one festival (Uprise?) through the fence....that picture makes me cry. I would give up a lifetime of Disciple shows so that kids who need Disciple would get to see them and talk to them.


This one really hit home with me. Five years ago, I was one of those kids who desperately needed Disciple. Over the past year or so, I've noticed that shows have started to feel different than they used to. It wasn't until last night that I completely realized why... I don't need Disciple the way I did when they came into my life. I'll always love them to pieces. They're still incredibly important people in my life. I'll always value their opinions and advice. But there are so many kids standing where I was that need them so much more than I do now. I'm glad I can step aside.


I think of it as a supporting role sort of. Now you can take what you've gotten from Disciple and help others who were in your place, and help promote Disciple and help those kids find them. At least that's kind of why I use Disciple songs in my photo art the most...besides them just inspiring me the most I want to also get their songs out there to new people.
THE ECCENTRIC SHEEP MUSINGS

TO THOSE IN THE FIGHT AGAINST DEPRESSION
http://jesuswired.com/eccentric-sheep-m ... epression/

SELF INJURY AWARENESS DAY POST
https://jesuswired.com/eccentric-sheep- ... ury-story/
Columbia
 
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by Columbia Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:41 am

lappinglivingwater wrote:
Columbia wrote:It may be worth considering the fact that there are no recorded instances of female church leadership in the New Testament.


I need to challenge this statement here, Jerry. Paul is talking about women teaching in this chapter-- and there are several recorded instances of women teaching in the New Testament. And not only that, but I believe one clear reference to a woman church leader.

The first person to teach people in the temple that the Messiah had come was not a man, but a woman and a prophetess, Anna (Luke 2). Paul's close friend Priscilla, Aquila's wife, also taught Apollos about Christ (Acts 18:26). Philip's four virgin daughters were also prophetesses and evangelists (Acts 21:8-9).

Since we are in the letter to Timothy, who taught Timothy about God? His father? Nothing is said about his father. But Paul notes that Timothy's mother and grandmother first had the faith that Paul also believes was in Timothy (2 Timothy 1:5). To me, this certainly implies that they taught Timothy about the Lord, preparing him to be Paul's most beloved student.

Finally, when John writes his second epistle, the letter to "the elect lady", it certainly sounds as though he is writing to a church leader.
These are all New Testament instances of women teaching, which is leadership to me. I guess I'm having a hard time understanding what you meant by the comment.


I am not sure how anyone can miss the definite pattern of how church leadership is supposed to be headed by men. It's no bed of roses. There is such a thing as liberation theology. There are even versions of the Bible that support a more feminist view. This is not a matter of what I want to believe but what I am compelled to believe from the Scripture. Left to myself, I would have no problem with drunkenness and drug addiction. Would have no problem with LGBT acceptance. No problem with sex outside of marriage. No problem with just about anything the Bible defines as sin. Yet God clearly states these things are not part of His kingdom. So I take His side and get slammed for it. It's worth doing things God's way. I do not believe I commented about teaching. This chapter does comment about that. Just trying to stick to God's way whether I like it or not. Whether it is popular or not. Whether I understand it or not. Women are definitely not to take on the role of men in the church. The Bible is clear about that on many levels. Surprised you didn't mention Debora. She was compelled to stand in for a wimpy man. But it was not the preferred way of doing things by God.
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cindyddavis
 
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by cindyddavis Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:18 am

I don't really have an opinion either way on this subject. I think we were all created with gifts. Some women make great leaders while others (like me) couldn't lead a horse to water. Some make great teachers, others have no desire. I guess i just feel like the emphasis shouldnt really be put on the sex. It should be put on the gift we're given.
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by lappinglivingwater Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:20 am

Columbia wrote:I am not sure how anyone can miss the definite pattern of how church leadership is supposed to be headed by men. It's no bed of roses. There is such a thing as liberation theology. There are even versions of the Bible that support a more feminist view. This is not a matter of what I want to believe but what I am compelled to believe from the Scripture. Left to myself, I would have no problem with drunkenness and drug addiction. Would have no problem with LGBT acceptance. No problem with sex outside of marriage. No problem with just about anything the Bible defines as sin. Yet God clearly states these things are not part of His kingdom. So I take His side and get slammed for it. It's worth doing things God's way. I do not believe I commented about teaching. This chapter does comment about that. Just trying to stick to God's way whether I like it or not. Whether it is popular or not. Whether I understand it or not. Women are definitely not to take on the role of men in the church. The Bible is clear about that on many levels. Surprised you didn't mention Debora. She was compelled to stand in for a wimpy man. But it was not the preferred way of doing things by God.


I have no doubt that you are trying follow the Word as best as possible, and I'm not slamming anyone. I tried to better understand what you asserted as respectfully as I could by asking questions.

I did mention Deborah, and Huldah also, in a previous post. You specifically referred to the New Testament in your post, so I pointed to places that challenge the assertion made about female leadership in the New Testament. If you are a teacher, you are a leader. That's how I understand leadership. Maybe the term leader means different things to you and I. Isnt' a pastor meant to teach his congregation about the Word of God?

But above all else, if I ask questions, I'm not "slamming" you. I'm simply asking a question. If you tell me that's the way you understand it, then that's cool. That's the way you understand it. If I don't understand something the same way that you do, I have to ask questions to get a better sense of what your thinking is. How else will I get to understand you?

Why would Paul say "there is neither male nor female" in Galatians 3:28 and then turn around here and say (editorial) "except when it comes to leadership... then women should just be quiet and let men lead"? Again, just a question.

There is one point that I do have to disagree with, though. I haven't seen anything in the story of Deborah and Jael's defeat of Sisera that suggests to me that God was not happy with the way the battle turned out because they were both women. Deborah was the judge at that time (Judges 4:4), which means she was God's chosen leader. Judges 4:23 makes it clear that this was how God subdued the enemy. I don't see where it says that He would have preferred it to go down another way.
"If you can believe, all things are possible to the person who believes."
~Mark 9:23

My posts reflect what I believe; please don't take them as me telling you what you have to believe - your time in study and prayer will tell you that.
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by Columbia Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:43 pm

The thing I tried to assert is that the New Testament does not name any women as apostles, elders, pastors, or deacons. The qualifications for bishops, elders, and deacons all apply to male persona. I do not claim to understand it all. What I believe does not matter. What I like or dislike does not matter. What God says does matter. The Bible is not subject to my personal whims nor preferences. I used to have very social attitudes about divorce until I yielded to what the Bible clearly says about it. That process took about 30 years to complete. I am not opposed to all women by excluding them from teaching roles. Women are naturally care-givers. That gives them a pastoral air but does not make them top leaders. Biblical Church administration does seem to be limited to men. Secular administration is not limited to men by God. My wife's submission to me is between her and the Lord. Loving and understanding her is hard enough without me getting involved in her role of responsibility. God asks us to do what does not come naturally because we need to be controlled by His Spirit. I would love to sit on my butt while my wife works and pays the bills........ But then I would be worse than a nonbeliever. Roles aren't always fun but they serve a distinct purpose. Bible college would have been pretty boring without the girls. But the girls were not being trained for administrative leadership roles. Actually it seemed to me that the church secretaries acted on behalf of the pastor in the church that ran the school. They had to act with authority but were subject to the male pastoral staff. I have been in churches where women were pastors. Even one where the senior pastor was a woman. In the end, I have submitted to God's word on the subject and stuck with male leadership. That is the biblical pattern but it can be abused by over-lording men. The same may be true with women in a pastoral role. They can be over-lording as well. The biblical model is the safe way to go. Even gross sin against God does not bother me in the natural sense. That is because I am a sinner. Women in administration does not bother me in the natural sense either. But the Bible trumps me every time.
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by lappinglivingwater Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:35 am

I can see that I'm making you upset so I'll let it go. I did bring up Huldah the prophetess from the Old Testament (2 Kings 22 or 2 Chronicles 34) and "the elect lady" that Saint John writes to in 2 John as examples of female church leadership-- but that's all I will say about it.
"If you can believe, all things are possible to the person who believes."
~Mark 9:23

My posts reflect what I believe; please don't take them as me telling you what you have to believe - your time in study and prayer will tell you that.
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by Columbia Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:58 am

Not upset. LOL. Just clarifying a common misunderstanding that is driven by a feminist culture. That is what Paul was dealing with. I am sure he had stuck his hand in a hornet's nest. The Bible is not always my favorite place to go for instruction. But it is the only place I go for instruction about spiritual matters. Sometimes I do not like the instruction. As the church, we are to be counter-cultural while existing within the culture. The church is to be in contrast against secular society. Paul's theology opened the door for slaves to be leaders in the church while being ordered to submit to their masters outside the church. This is not about power or superiority. This is about being actively different from the world around us. The problem is that we have become like the world around us and invite it in. The only motive I can perceive that God has in this male/female thing is to be deliberately different from the world. My wife ran a business. I worked for her. In our home and in our church the pattern was different because of the Bible. At work, my wife was the boss. At home, Christ was head with me being responsible for the welfare of our home. At church, men were pastors, elders, and deacons. A feminist culture is not wrong in and of itself. But the church is not to model a feminist culture. The girls I went to college with? They received degrees in Christian Education while I received a degree in Pastoral Theology. Christian Education was my minor. Many of those ladies were excellent speakers. Many of them have been excellent teachers for decades now. A couple of them pioneered works on the mission field. My wife did an evangelism ministry out of her business in the Philippines. Here, she ministers to kids while I paint the church building. LOL. She also has helped me paint to catch up with the work as I also work another full time job. Upset? No. There are many bigger things I could justify myself to be upset about. I know what it is to have a strong sense of calling to the pastoral ministry while consistently being pushed to the side by those who seek power. There are legitimate women pastors. They operate in that ministry gift while not functioning as administrators. The five-fold (or four-fold) ministry is not confined to men only. It is a matter of office vs function. I know I am the odd person here. It's okay, we'll all survive.
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by ECCENTRICSHEEP Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:41 pm

Columbia wrote:Not upset. LOL. Just clarifying a common misunderstanding that is driven by a feminist culture. That is what Paul was dealing with. I am sure he had stuck his hand in a hornet's nest. The Bible is not always my favorite place to go for instruction. But it is the only place I go for instruction about spiritual matters. Sometimes I do not like the instruction. As the church, we are to be counter-cultural while existing within the culture. The church is to be in contrast against secular society. Paul's theology opened the door for slaves to be leaders in the church while being ordered to submit to their masters outside the church. This is not about power or superiority. This is about being actively different from the world around us. The problem is that we have become like the world around us and invite it in. The only motive I can perceive that God has in this male/female thing is to be deliberately different from the world. My wife ran a business. I worked for her. In our home and in our church the pattern was different because of the Bible. At work, my wife was the boss. At home, Christ was head with me being responsible for the welfare of our home. At church, men were pastors, elders, and deacons. A feminist culture is not wrong in and of itself. But the church is not to model a feminist culture. The girls I went to college with? They received degrees in Christian Education while I received a degree in Pastoral Theology. Christian Education was my minor. Many of those ladies were excellent speakers. Many of them have been excellent teachers for decades now. A couple of them pioneered works on the mission field. My wife did an evangelism ministry out of her business in the Philippines. Here, she ministers to kids while I paint the church building. LOL. She also has helped me paint to catch up with the work as I also work another full time job. Upset? No. There are many bigger things I could justify myself to be upset about. I know what it is to have a strong sense of calling to the pastoral ministry while consistently being pushed to the side by those who seek power. There are legitimate women pastors. They operate in that ministry gift while not functioning as administrators. The five-fold (or four-fold) ministry is not confined to men only. It is a matter of office vs function. I know I am the odd person here. It's okay, we'll all survive.


I totally agree with you. God created men to be the leaders. Its very important that men take up that role as leader too. The men themselves are better off if they take up that role, families are better when the man takes up their role, and that ripples into the the entire world pretty much when men take up their role as leader.
THE ECCENTRIC SHEEP MUSINGS

TO THOSE IN THE FIGHT AGAINST DEPRESSION
http://jesuswired.com/eccentric-sheep-m ... epression/

SELF INJURY AWARENESS DAY POST
https://jesuswired.com/eccentric-sheep- ... ury-story/
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by NEVERGOINBACKAGAIN Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:07 pm

verse 2 "and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also". DISCIPLEship!!!! An area where the Church is lacking. In order to grow the church discipleship must take place. Who am I pouring myself in to? Who am I bring in to my home to see me live out the faith before them? To show them what Christian father and husband is like and be an example to them. It is not just about seeing someone make a decision to follow Jesus. Who will show them how to live a Christian life and how to grow spiritually? Also, we should continue to have someone pouring into us to disciple us!!

verse 22 "So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels." This is challenging to me personally. I have difficulty giving over some of my "youthful passions". Not only giving them up, but FLEEING from them. Running away from them to PURSUE (chase after) righteousness, faith, love and peace.

Such a great chapter!!

-Nate
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by Columbia Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:45 am

My church situation seems to have quieted down for now. The church shuns me and I try to mind my own business while completing the big painting project on the exterior of the building. Lots of caulking and scraping to get the application right. Don't want to climb back up to the peak area on that tall ladder any more! That is finished as the overall project draws to a conclusion. Thankful that my wife and my brother pitched in to help on the hardest part. Climbing ladders in areas intended for scaffolding raises a sense of shared dependency upon the Lord. - A dependency that is not lost nor ignored in 1 Timothy 2.
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by NEVERGOINBACKAGAIN Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:12 am

Please disregard my previous post. I am a moron. I posted about 2 Timothy chapter 2. Sorry!
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ECCENTRICSHEEP
 
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by ECCENTRICSHEEP Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:15 pm

NEVERGOINBACKAGAIN wrote:Please disregard my previous post. I am a moron. I posted about 2 Timothy chapter 2. Sorry!


It's okay I almost posted on 2 Tim 2 lol XD

I pondered on verse 22 and 23 that you posted so your post was not wasted. :)
THE ECCENTRIC SHEEP MUSINGS

TO THOSE IN THE FIGHT AGAINST DEPRESSION
http://jesuswired.com/eccentric-sheep-m ... epression/

SELF INJURY AWARENESS DAY POST
https://jesuswired.com/eccentric-sheep- ... ury-story/
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by ECCENTRICSHEEP Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:50 pm

Since we're talking about men and women, I started on Barclay's books for Matthew today. I guess I never thought about the fact that women are in Jesus' pedigree there in chapter one. Anyway, I'll throw it in here while we wait for 1 Tim 3 to get put up.


(About Matthew 1:1-17 From Barclay) Barriers broken down through the pedigree of Jesus Christ...from William Barclay.

"By far the most amazing thing about this pedigree is the names of the women who appear.

It is not normal to find the names of women in the Jewish pedigrees at all. The woman had no legal rights; she was regarded not as a person, but as a thing. She was merely the possession of her father or of her husband, and in his disposal to do with as he liked. In the regular form of morning prayer the Jew thanked God that he had not made him a Gentile, a slave, or a woman. The very existence of these names in any pedigree at all is a most surprising and extraordinary phenomenon.

-Rahab was a harlot of Jericho
-Ruth was not even a Jewess; she was a Moabitess
-Tamar was a deliberate seducer and an adulteress
-Bathsheba was the woman whom David seduced from Uriah, her husband, with an unforgivable cruelty

If Matthew had ransacked the pages of the Old Testament for improbable candidates he could not have discovered 4 more incredible ancestors for Jesus Christ. But, surely, there is something very lovely in this. Here, at the very beginning, Matthew shows us in symbol the essence of the gospel of God in Jesus Christ, for here he shows us the barriers going down.

1. The barrier between Jew and Gentile (Rahab and Ruth)
2. The Barrier between male and female (the fact that there are women in Jesus' pedigree)
3. The barrier between saint and sinner is down.

1 This is the genealogy[a] of Jesus the Messiah[b] the son of David, the son of Abraham:

2 Abraham was the father of Isaac,

Isaac the father of Jacob,

Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,

3 Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,

Perez the father of Hezron,

Hezron the father of Ram,

4 Ram the father of Amminadab,

Amminadab the father of Nahshon,

Nahshon the father of Salmon,

5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,

Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,

Obed the father of Jesse,

6 and Jesse the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah’s wife,

7 Solomon the father of Rehoboam,

Rehoboam the father of Abijah,

Abijah the father of Asa,

8 Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,

Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,

Jehoram the father of Uzziah,

9 Uzziah the father of Jotham,

Jotham the father of Ahaz,

Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,

10 Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,

Manasseh the father of Amon,

Amon the father of Josiah,

11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[c] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
12 After the exile to Babylon:

Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,

Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,

13 Zerubbabel the father of Abihud,

Abihud the father of Eliakim,

Eliakim the father of Azor,

14 Azor the father of Zadok,

Zadok the father of Akim,

Akim the father of Elihud,

15 Elihud the father of Eleazar,

Eleazar the father of Matthan,

Matthan the father of Jacob,

16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.
17 Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Messiah.
THE ECCENTRIC SHEEP MUSINGS

TO THOSE IN THE FIGHT AGAINST DEPRESSION
http://jesuswired.com/eccentric-sheep-m ... epression/

SELF INJURY AWARENESS DAY POST
https://jesuswired.com/eccentric-sheep- ... ury-story/
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by lappinglivingwater Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:54 pm

I'll throw this out there for you: the genealogy given in Matthew is not Jesus' genealogy - it's Joseph's. Joseph was not Jesus' father. The genealogy that Luke gives for Jesus is actually Mary's genealogy on her father's side (Luke 3:23). On her mother's side, Mary was a Levite descendant, since her cousin Elizabeth was a "daughter of Aaron" (Luke 1:5; 1:36). So Jesus in a lineage sense is a physical descendant of both King David and Aaron the High Priest.
"If you can believe, all things are possible to the person who believes."
~Mark 9:23

My posts reflect what I believe; please don't take them as me telling you what you have to believe - your time in study and prayer will tell you that.
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Re: 1 TIMOTHY CHAPTER 2

by ECCENTRICSHEEP Tue Nov 08, 2016 8:00 am

I just love the theme of breaking barriers Barclay talks about, and today of all days seemed like a good day for it since its election day here. That's all I wanted to post about because its beautiful how Jesus breaks down barriers.
THE ECCENTRIC SHEEP MUSINGS

TO THOSE IN THE FIGHT AGAINST DEPRESSION
http://jesuswired.com/eccentric-sheep-m ... epression/

SELF INJURY AWARENESS DAY POST
https://jesuswired.com/eccentric-sheep- ... ury-story/
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