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Kevin Young
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2 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 3

by Kevin Young Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:51 am

This week we will be discussing 2 CORINTHIANS Chapter 3. After you read the chapter, please take time to post….

1. Your favorite passages from Chapter 3
2. Things that challenged you
3. Any special insights that you would like to share with us
4. Any questions that you may have
5. Any related thoughts at all
(This is just a guideline and doesn't have to be followed exactly)

We welcome all opinions and no question is ever a "dumb" question. We want everyone to feel welcome and have the freedom to share whatever they may like. The only thing we ask is that while sharing your opinion, please be respectful to others. In short, disagree without being rude and hurtful. Also, if you are reading these posts and part of the Bible Study but feel like you don't have anything to add or post, we would ask that you please at least check in and post that you are reading with us so that we know you are there. Even when you don't say anything, it is encouraging just knowing that people are in our group with us. We all learn so much from these studies, so with that being said….. LET'S GO!!!!
Trust in the Lord with all your heart - Prov. 3:5,6
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Re: 2 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 3

by ECCENTRICSHEEP Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:24 pm

5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


I love that. Because I am totally not competent by myself for sure! I’ve read the bible front to back a few times and read through the new testament even more than that, yet here I am not competent. Not even just satisfactory with all my read and independent study, not even close. I’m still foolish and incompetent as ever. I am nothing by myself.

12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold.


Yep! What do I have to lose here? Earthly reputation or worldly riches? I have nothing to lose because I have already gained everything. So since hopelessness does not exist for me I will do whatever bold and crazy writing or art God calls me to do!
THE ECCENTRIC SHEEP MUSINGS

TO THOSE IN THE FIGHT AGAINST DEPRESSION
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SELF INJURY AWARENESS DAY POST
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Re: 2 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 3

by Columbia Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:46 pm

"Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you, or from you? You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on our hearts, to be known and read by all. And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts." ---- What a mind-blowing way to phrase a defense! Notice what's happening here? Paul actually commends his leadership team by commending the Corinthians. False apostles had come in and had discredited the Apostle Paul. They were using literal "letters of recommendation" to exalt themselves. Paul and his team had no such recommendations. This made them suspect, in the eyes of the rebellious Corinthians, by way of a manufactured standard that was established by false apostles. These recommendations pushed away the imperative need for rescue from the carnal mess that the Corinthian church had become. Paul and his fellow-workers had already been pushed into a separate category by usurping leaders. These leaders tolerated (and likely practiced) horrible sin habits that were condemned by God. Now Paul draws the Corinthians back into righteous unity, with the true leaders, by calling the Corinthians their spiritual letter of recommendation. Confidence in the authority and genuine care of the apostles had been negated. Since Paul was forced to act in a correcting manner, confidence in him needed to be restored. All discipline must be redemptive. But how can anyone who desperately needs corrective discipline be redeemed if they have no confidence in the person(s) who are bringing discipline to them? Paul not only found a way to inspire the Corinthians back to full confidence in him. He also offers them a way back to spiritual dignity. Paul's humility is expressed in his subtle admission that he and the other true leaders are nothing in Corinth apart from their disciples. His appeal, to bring them back into discipleship, is absolutely astounding! This little piece of the chapter gives me great confidence as well. Standing for godly morals in an immoral church can be devastating. In confronting, let's say for example, sexual sin in the church, an influential person can find themselves excommunicated. I know. This recently happened to my wife and me. (My wife hadn't even said one word allowing me to be the spokesperson. Yet they kicked her out for good measure in a secret meeting that we were not allowed to attend.) Three pastors, my wife, and I were all ejected from this same little church in less than two years time. The church we now attend is the lesser of the surrounding immoral churches. (The church we now attend calls upon a woman who has been in the church for six years, while living with a man who is not her husband, to lead and function as a member in good standing.) Looks like nothing compared to Corinth but is still not right. So seeing the apostle, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, express such wisdom is an encouragement indeed. Paul and his team were not exactly popular at times either. Would rather be popular with Jesus.
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Re: 2 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 3

by notebooknut Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:00 am

You know the whole first verse says that we need to be living mirrors for God. We need to look like him in everything we do. And that will show. Hm. I think Imma write a song based off of those last few scriptures. I'll post when I'm done.

Ha, for once I actually don't have a novel to post. Short chapter...
- Maddie

"Opposite as the day and night
As different as the sun and moon is
This is the reality of my duality
This WE needs to become a ME!"
- Jonathan Thulin, Jekyll & Hyde
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Re: 2 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 3

by notebooknut Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:03 am

This is a little off topic, but I gotta say this:

God revealed to me the true definition of faith the other day. My dog hurt his leg somehow, and I got really freaked out. Just because after I lost my first dog, I was afraid to ever go through that again. I was holding him, and crying. So I told God, "You know what I went through with Chico. I don't want to do that again." and He replied, "then stop worrying. You asked Me to heal Riley. If you REALLY believed I'd do that, then why are you worrying? What's there to worry about?" and then that kinda sunk in. If we do truly believe that God will help a situation- you gotta believe that without fear or else you don't really believe He'll do what you asked.

I gave Riley to God. I said that I wouldn't worry anymore and it's in His hands, and He's gonna heal my dog. Well guess what? I woke up the next morning, and my dog was FINE. Like nothing ever happened to him!
- Maddie

"Opposite as the day and night
As different as the sun and moon is
This is the reality of my duality
This WE needs to become a ME!"
- Jonathan Thulin, Jekyll & Hyde
Kevin Young
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Re: 2 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 3

by Kevin Young Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:13 pm

Well, I missed my 5:49am flight this morning and now rescheduled for 6:41pm....SO now I finally have time to sit down and answer a big question of lappinglivingwater's from a month and a half ago. If you are not into reading big long posts, then go ahead and skip this one, because it's going to be a long one. My family and I have been moving into a new house, and I have not had very much time between moving, being a dad, and doing Disciple to sit down and give the response that I would like.... because I know this is going to take me at least a couple of hours to write.

When I read this verse this morning "6He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life".... I knew it was time for me to respond to my friend Micheal (lappinglivingwater) about questions about the Old Testament laws. During the 1 Corinthians 10 of our Bible Study discussion on the message boards, there were two verses that I commented on...

"6These things happened as a warning to us, so that we would not crave evil things as they did"

and

"11These things happened to them as examples for us. They were written down to warn us who live at the end of the age."

I said that these verses summed up what I believe about the Old Testament... that under the new covenant of Jesus Christ we are not required to follow the requirements of the Old Covenant, but that they still have use to us as Christians. I believe there is a spiritual significance to every law in the Old Testament, and definitely a spiritual parallel. For example, Abraham offering Isaac as a sacrifice was a foreshadowing of God the Father offering Jesus Christ as a sacrifice for us. Paul goes on to say that the trials of the people of Israel "happened as a warning to us, so that we would no crave the evil things as they did." So therefore we should study and know the Old Testament because it does have spiritual application to our lives.

I made a comment about "not having to wear mixed fabrics, and women not having to shout "unclean" in the streets whenever they were on their monthly cycle" anymore because those are old laws and we are not required to follow them anymore.

And here is Lappinglivingwater's reply
I am a bit fuzzy on what you mean when you discuss this, Kevin. You've stated that you don't believe that the OT rules and regulations are for Christians, but "Thou shalt not murder" is a rule. Would it be alright if you could clarify what you mean? (I'm asking in a general sense, not for a rule-by-rule breakdown.) My understanding is that the instructions on how to behave still apply, but the ceremonies, and the requirement for sacrifice to atone for sins, have already been fulfilled by Christ for one and all time.

Can you also let me know what you are quoting when you cite that a woman had to shout "Unclean!"? I can't find this.

Also, I do believe that society shouldn't be creating mixed fabrics because of what that simple first step has led to. The way I see it is this - God created all things, and they were good. But man, in his ignorance and hubris, always seems to think that he can improve on nature. The first step to the "improvement" is mixing two natural fibres... eventually you get to mixing in other fibres, such as oil-based fibres (polyesters/plastics), that aren't biodegradable and that cause a huge pollution problem. Governments all over the world are getting worried now because of the ramifications of pollution, which all began with that first step of breaking God's laws on how to treat the earth. But should this be any wonder? This really is just a fulfilment of prophecy that says, "Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings (Micah 7:13)." Jesus also prophesied of earthquakes, famines, plagues/disease in the last days, and men being fearful of what was coming upon the earth in Luke 21.

What about planting two different kinds of plants in the same field? a rule that a lot of people, including Christians, point to as being pointless. But, really what the base of the law is is cross-pollination. Hybrid plants are not good for us to consume. God created everything after its order, and it was good. But, again, man thinks he can improve things, and now we have genetically modified foods, which the boys in Disciple have talked about as being bad in the podcasts. That all began with hybridization and gene splicing that took place in the late 19th century by a monk - but just because that dude was a monk, doesn't mean that what he was doing was right.

Further, I still believe that all of the animals noted in Leviticus 11 are not good for us to consume. They are all scavengers. As I've heard it quoted, "Eating those animals would be like taking the used filter out of your furnace and making a cup of tea from it." They are good animals, and serve the purpose that they were designed for, which is to keep the earth clean, but I don't believe that that purpose was to be consumed. (Actually, I don't believe that God intended for any animals to be consumed. Adam wasn't told that he could eat any animals. But God allows it for this period of time. I haven't read where we will be consuming animals in the eternity.) And again, even though we are allowed to consume animals, we were told which were good for us and which weren't. Leviticus 11 is a nutrition guide - the best one we'll ever find. But people won't listen to it - they'll eat what they want - and now we all scratch our heads at why the costs of health care from diet-based diseases and obesity are off the charts. I personally believe if we ate the things we were instructed to, we'd be in a much better place; not as a matter of spirituality, but just for general good health.

Have I goofed here? Is there something wrong with the logic? I don't think those rules are only applicable to Christians, but to the entire world - they are the instruction manual on how the world should work. Jesus said, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:19)," before He went on to teach lessons about several of the commandments from Deuteronomy. John also said, "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous (1 John 5:3)." All of the commandments are instructions on how to treat each other with love. No? I haven't read anywhere in the Bible that would convince me that we are not supposed to follow the commandments.


Now I consider Micheal a friend, and truly a blessing to these Bible Studies and message boards. I am going to respectfully disagree with him, and hopefully set an example of how to disagree with someone on these Bible Studies in a polite and respectful "non-rude" way. My goal is not to persuade Micheal or anyone else, but to simply state my interpretation of Scripture. And if you are persuaded as a result then by all means. So here it goes....

I actually agree with most of what was said here. I think the Old Testament should be read and studied and considered, so when lappinglivingwater makes his point about mixed fabrics, I can see why God made this a commandment but also why it is good for us to implement this commandment today. And the whole nutrition guide is brilliant. You can't argue with the fact that God made our bodies and knows what is best for them. Wholeheartedly agree, and try to do the best I can in that area.

The verse about the woman shouting "unclean" is Leviticus 15:19-30. She is not actually commanded to shout unclean but the implication is clear because if she were not to let people know that she is on her menstrual period then she would make any person who came in contact with her unclean.
"19“Whenever a woman has her menstrual period, she will be ceremonially unclean for seven days. Anyone who touches her during that time will be unclean until evening. 20Anything on which the woman lies or sits during the time of her period will be unclean. 21If any of you touch her bed, you must wash your clothes and bathe yourself in water, and you will remain unclean until evening. 22If you touch any object she has sat on, you must wash your clothes and bathe yourself in water, and you will remain unclean until evening. 23This includes her bed or any other object she has sat on; you will be unclean until evening if you touch it."

So this verse in application would mean whenever my wife is on her period, I can not touch her in any way or I will be unclean, nor can I touch anything that she has sat on.

So here is where we differ. And this is going to take a while to explain. When lappinglivingwater says
I don't think those rules are only applicable to Christians, but to the entire world - they are the instruction manual on how the world should work. Jesus said, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:19)," before He went on to teach lessons about several of the commandments from Deuteronomy. John also said, "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous (1 John 5:3)." All of the commandments are instructions on how to treat each other with love. No? I haven't read anywhere in the Bible that would convince me that we are not supposed to follow the commandments.
... then I am taking him at his word that he believes that Christians should follow the Old Testament commandments, some of which I agree with

I see the logic in not eating scavengers, and not wearing mixed fabric. But when you say this verse "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" and imply that this verse means we should follow the least of and all of the behavioral commandments of the Old Testament, then what you are saying is that as Christians, we should do these things....

- Not touch a woman when she is on her menstrual period, or touch anything she has sat on (Lev 15)
- Execute anyone who dishonors their father and mother - 9“Anyone who dishonors father or mother must be put to death. Such a person is guilty of a capital offense. (Lev 20:9)
- Not allow anyone of illegitimate birth (bastard) come to our church. "2“If a person is illegitimate by birth, neither he nor his descendants for ten generations may be admitted to the assembly of the lord." (Deut 23:2)
- Not allow eunuchs to go to church. "1If a man’s testicles are crushed or his penis is cut off, he may not be admitted to the assembly of the lord." (Deut 23:1)
- Cut off the hand of wives defending their husbands. "11“If two Israelite men get into a fight and the wife of one tries to rescue her husband by grabbing the testicles of the other man, 12you must cut off her hand. Show her no pity."
- If a man discovers his wife is not a virgin, she must be executed. "20“But suppose the man’s accusations are true, and he can show that she was not a virgin. 21The woman must be taken to the door of her father’s home, and there the men of the town must stone her to death" (Deut 22:20)
- Execute all adulterers. "22“If a man is discovered committing adultery, both he and the woman must die. In this way, you will purge Israel of such evil." (Deut 22:22)
- Anyone who works on the Sabbath should be put to death. "Anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death." (Ex. 31:15)
- No one with a physical defect can approach God. "16Then the lord said to Moses, 17“Give the following instructions to Aaron: In all future generations, none of your descendants who has any defect will qualify to offer food to his God. 18No one who has a defect qualifies, whether he is blind, lame, disfigured, deformed, 19or has a broken foot or arm, 20or is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or has a defective eye, or skin sores or scabs, or damaged testicles. 21No descendant of Aaron who has a defect may approach the altar to present special gifts to the lord. Since he has a defect, he may not approach the altar to offer food to his God. 22However, he may eat from the food offered to God, including the holy offerings and the most holy offerings. 23Yet because of his physical defect, he may not enter the room behind the inner curtain or approach the altar, for this would defile my holy places. I am the lord who makes them holy.” (Lev 21:16-23)
- Every man needs to be circumcised. (Lev 12:3).

Paul clearly teaches against this in Galatians 5:6 "6For when we place our faith in Christ Jesus, there is no benefit in being circumcised or being uncircumcised. What is important is faith expressing itself in love." And 1 Corinthians 7:18 "Was anyone at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision." So here Paul is preaching and telling people to ignore not a "least of the commandments" but literally one of the greatest commandments of the Old Testament, because circumcision was "the sign" that marked you as a member of the covenant. Paul says "don't seek circumcision" but stay as you are. So by lappinglivingwater's logic Paul is in direct disobedience to Jesus' command because he is teaching men to break this commandment." Is there a hygiene benefit to being circumcised? Yes. And still Paul says "Don't seek to be circumcised. Why would he go against God's instruction manual?

Now you quote Jesus as saying "whoever breaks the least of the commandments, and teaches others to do so will be called the least." So let's take a look at Jesus' example...
- Was Jesus teaching others to break the commandments when he stopped a crowd from stoning a woman caught in adultery? Weren't they only following the commandment in Deut 22:22 to stone adulterers.
- Was Jesus teaching others to break the commandments when he and his disciples picked grain on the Sabbath in Mark 2:23? Weren't the Pharisees right to want to kill Jesus for breaking the Sabbath? And weren't they commanded to do so in Ex 31:15?
- Was Jesus teaching others to break the law when he commanded a man he just healed to pick up his mat and walk on the Sabbath day (John 5)? Weren't the Pharisees right to be upset that Jesus was commanding someone to do something opposite of what the law taught, since they were in fact experts on the law of Moses.
- Was Jesus teaching others to break the commandments when he touched a leper in Matt. 8:3 when it was specifically commanded to not touch anyone unclean in Lev 22:5?
- Was Jesus teaching others to break the commandments when he said it was to not ok to divorce your wife except for unfaithfulness in Matt. 19:8 when Moses' law taught that it was ok to divorce your wife for basically any reason? "1“Suppose a man marries a woman but she does not please him. Having discovered something wrong with her, he writes a document of divorce, hands it to her, and sends her away from his house." (Deut 24:1)
- Assuming that the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her tears was a prostitute... Was Jesus teaching others to break the commandments when he allowed her to break a jar of alabaster and wash his feet with it... since the earnings of a prostitute were clearly forbidden to be gifts to the Lord? "18When you are bringing an offering to fulfill a vow, you must not bring to the house of the lord your God any offering from the earnings of a prostitute, whether a man or a woman, for both are detestable to the lord your God." (Deut 23:18)

When Jesus said these words in Matthew 5, "17“Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. 19So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
20“But I warn you—unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven!"

..... this was actually his opening statement to how the new covenant was going to be different than the old covenant. You see, here is the BIG DISTINCTION. Jesus did not come to fulfill the letter of the law (as I have clearly laid out).... No he came to accomplish it's purpose. He came to accomplish the Spirit of the Law. He shows his listeners how the new covenant was going to be greater than the old covenant as he said.....

You've heard it said
Old - Don't murder
But I say to you
New - Don't even be angry with or curse someone

Now be honest, didn't Jesus just say whoever teaches them to break the least of these commandments will be called the least? Then why is he saying "You've heard it said" and then adds a "but" every single time. If it is commandment of God there should be no "but." BUT in the new covenant there clearly is...

You've heard it said, but I say (Matthew 5)
Old - Don't commit adultery
New - Don't even look at a woman with lust
Old - it's ok to divorce for any reason
New - It's not ok to divorce except for unfaithfulness
Old - Don't break your vows
New - Don't make vows
Old - Eye for eye
New - Turn the other cheek
Old - Hate your enemy
New - Love your enemy

The New Covenant is clearly better. Jesus in essence is saying, "Do you really want to fulfill the Law? Then stop looking at the letter of the Law, and instead look to the Spirit. And the Spirit of the Law is LOVE." 37Jesus replied, “‘You must love the lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.”

Now I don't have a problem with someone saying that following Old Testament laws have benefit. But when someone says that we must follow all of the laws and that those laws are still for us today... even just the behavioral laws... then how can you pick and choose? If you want to hold up "thou shalt not murder" don't you have to hold up "stone the prostitute and the rebellious child" right next to it. How do you pick and choose which ones you will follow? If you hold up "don't eat unclean meat" then don't you have to hold up "be circumcised" right next to it.... and since Paul clearly says "don't seek to be circumcised" (1 Cor 7:18) in the New Testament, don't you find that odd that he would be trying to convince people to NOT do something that would be beneficial to them. If someone says that we must follow these laws and then says even the least of them, then you mean the least of them. I don't know of any Christian woman who does not allow herself to be touched during her menstrual period. I don't know of any Christian man who refuses to sit on a chair that a menstruating woman just sat in. Furthermore, if a Christian man follows the law by stoning his child for being rebellious, how can we be upset with him for doing this? If we say, "It is wrong to stone your child" won't he just reply, "No. In fact it is the very law of God that I stone this child." So aren't you picking and choosing when you say we need to follow the old laws and the old laws are still for us today?

Lappinglivingwater said " All of the commandments are instructions on how to treat each other with love. No? I haven't read anywhere in the Bible that would convince me that we are not supposed to follow the commandments." ..... Respectfully, I'm going to show you those places in the Bible that specifically say that we are not to follow the Old Testament laws and regulations.

Galatians 5:1-4 "1So Christ has truly set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law.
2Listen! I, Paul, tell you this: If you are counting on circumcision to make you right with God, then Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3I’ll say it again. If you are trying to find favor with God by being circumcised, you must obey every regulation in the whole law of Moses. 4For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace."
Paul says don't get tied up in the slavery of the law. Which laws is he talking about? He at the very least is talking about circumcision. He even goes on to say that trying to keep the law to find favor with God makes you cut off from Christ and fallen away from grace. Paul is not shy about confronting the law of Moses. In no way is he trying to convince people to follow these laws. He in fact is compelling people to turn to Faith in Christ instead of following the law. Which laws does Paul not want us to get tied up in slavery to? If circumcision is one, then how do you pick and choose?

Galatians 5:11-12 "11Dear brothers and sisters, if I were still preaching that you must be circumcised—as some say I do—why am I still being persecuted? If I were no longer preaching salvation through the cross of Christ, no one would be offended. 12I just wish that those troublemakers who want to mutilate you by circumcision would mutilate themselves."
Paul is clearly persuading people to not be circumcised and instead put their faith in the cross of Christ. Paul is clearly compelling people to not follow the law of circumcision.

Romans 7:1-16 "1Now, dear brothers and sisters—you who are familiar with the law—don’t you know that the law applies only while a person is living? 2For example, when a woman marries, the law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies, the laws of marriage no longer apply to her. 3So while her husband is alive, she would be committing adultery if she married another man. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law and does not commit adultery when she remarries.
4So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, we can produce a harvest of good deeds for God. 5When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death. 6But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit."
Here is the clearest verse that says not to follow the old commandments. The real way to serve God is "not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit." These verses are inescapable. There is clearly a divide between Christianity (the new way), and the Law (the old way). Why would we be encouraged to die to the law, only to continue to follow it. Isn't the good news of this verse that we FREE AND RELEASED FROM THE LAW AND NO LONGER HELD CAPTIVE TO ITS POWER?

Romans 7:14 and 8:1-4 "14So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin." and "1So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. 2And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death. 3The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. 4He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit."
Here are mandate is clearly to FOLLOW THE SPIRIT. And not our sinful nature. The law is good, yes, but the law also arouses our sinful nature, therefore the "good" law must be done away with in order to follow the Spirit. You can't do both. You either follow the law or the Spirit. Just like Paul said in Galatians, if you are trying to be made right with God by following the law you are cut off from Christ.

Romans 3:19-26 19Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God. 20For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.
21But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. 22We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.
23For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24Yet God freely and graciously declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus."
Big verse here, "GOD HAS SHOWN US A WAY TO BE MADE RIGHT WITH HIM WITHOUT KEEPING THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW." Here again we encouraged to not keep the requirements of the Old Law. That is not to be confused the keeping the commandments of Christ. But even still, Faith in Christ is the ultimate point. Because no one can keep the commandments of Christ without first having faith. And righteousness is not based on our ability to keep those commandments, but on our faith in the work of Christ. And I will discuss the commandments of Christ shortly.

Romans 4:9-15 "Well, we have been saying that Abraham was counted as righteous by God because of his faith. 10But how did this happen? Was he counted as righteous only after he was circumcised, or was it before he was circumcised? Clearly, God accepted Abraham before he was circumcised!
11Circumcision was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous—even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are counted as righteous because of their faith. 12And Abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised, but only if they have the same kind of faith Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13Clearly, God’s promise to give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants was based not on his obedience to God’s law, but on a right relationship with God that comes by faith. 14If God’s promise is only for those who obey the law, then faith is not necessary and the promise is pointless. 15For the law always brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!)"
Here again, the law always brings punishment on those who try to obey so the only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break. Paul is clearly saying there is now no law to break. The law is not for the Christian. These verses are not referring to atonement laws and sacrificial laws, because circumcision did not involve animal sacrifice. Paul is referring to behavioral laws. The only way to have no law to break is to discard it.

Hebrews 7:11-19 "11So if the priesthood of Levi, on which the law was based, could have achieved the perfection God intended, why did God need to establish a different priesthood, with a priest in the order of Melchizedek instead of the order of Levi and Aaron?
12And if the priesthood is changed, the law must also be changed to permit it. 13For the priest we are talking about belongs to a different tribe, whose members have never served at the altar as priests. 14What I mean is, our Lord came from the tribe of Judah, and Moses never mentioned priests coming from that tribe.
15This change has been made very clear since a different priest, who is like Melchizedek, has appeared. 16Jesus became a priest, not by meeting the physical requirement of belonging to the tribe of Levi, but by the power of a life that cannot be destroyed. 17And the psalmist pointed this out when he prophesied,
“You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”
18Yes, the old requirement about the priesthood was set aside because it was weak and useless. 19For the law never made anything perfect. But now we have confidence in a better hope, through which we draw near to God."
Big words here... the law was changed. Think about that. Another big word.... the old requirement was set aside because it was weak and useless.

Hebrews 8:7 "7If the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second covenant to replace it."
What is this verse saying? Is it saying fault was found in the first covenant? Absolutely it is. Is it saying that the new covenant "replaces" it? Absolutely it does. The first covenant was based on laws. The new covenant is based on Faith and Grace. Once again, the law is being replaced. If a Christian wants to continue to follow the law and believes that God still wants them to follow the law, then how do they explain this verse?

Hebrews 8:13 "13When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear."
This sounds different than the verse in Matt 5:18 that says "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God's law will disappear until its purpose is achieved." How can these two verses co-exist? Unless.... Christ accomplished the purpose of the law and Spirit of the Law, now the letter of the law has become obsolete. These two verses have to co-exist. It's up to us to decide what that means, but as you can clearly see our early church fathers consistently implored us to toss away the shackles of the law.

Hebrews 9:19-20 "19For after Moses had read each of God’s commandments to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, along with water, and sprinkled both the book of God’s law and all the people, using hyssop branches and scarlet wool. 20Then he said, “This blood confirms the covenant God has made with you.”
The commandments that Moses read to the people clearly included behavioral commandments. The behavioral commandments were not separate from the atonement commandments. They were one. You can't have one without the other.

Hebrews 10:16-22 "16“This is the new covenant I will make
with my people on that day, says the lord:
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”
17Then he says,
“I will never again remember
their sins and lawless deeds.”
18And when sins have been forgiven, there is no need to offer any more sacrifices.
19And so, dear brothers and sisters, we can boldly enter heaven’s Most Holy Place because of the blood of Jesus. 20By his death, Jesus opened a new and life-giving way through the curtain into the Most Holy Place. 21And since we have a great High Priest who rules over God’s house, 22let us go right into the presence of God with sincere hearts fully trusting him. For our guilty consciences have been sprinkled with Christ’s blood to make us clean, and our bodies have been washed with pure water."
The atonement laws did not give us guilty consciences. No, it is the behavioral laws that gave us guilty consciences, and now they have been sprinkled with the blood of Christ to make us clean.

Galatians 2:11-21 "11But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him to his face, for what he did was very wrong. 12When he first arrived, he ate with the Gentile believers, who were not circumcised. But afterward, when some friends of James came, Peter wouldn’t eat with the Gentiles anymore. He was afraid of criticism from these people who insisted on the necessity of circumcision. 13As a result, other Jewish believers followed Peter’s hypocrisy, and even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.
14When I saw that they were not following the truth of the gospel message, I said to Peter in front of all the others, “Since you, a Jew by birth, have discarded the Jewish laws and are living like a Gentile, why are you now trying to make these Gentiles follow the Jewish traditions?
15“You and I are Jews by birth, not ‘sinners’ like the Gentiles. 16Yet we know that a person is made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the law. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be made right with God because of our faith in Christ, not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be made right with God by obeying the law.”
17But suppose we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then we are found guilty because we have abandoned the law. Would that mean Christ has led us into sin? Absolutely not! 18Rather, I am a sinner if I rebuild the old system of law I already tore down. 19For when I tried to keep the law, it condemned me. So I died to the law—I stopped trying to meet all its requirements—so that I might live for God. 20My old self has been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So I live in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not treat the grace of God as meaningless. For if keeping the law could make us right with God, then there was no need for Christ to die."


Huge verses of scripture here. Key phrases "DISCARDED THE JEWISH LAWS AND ARE LIVING LIKE A GENTILE." That's right. Here is the evidence. The apostles discarded the Jewish laws, and instead embraced faith in Christ. Another key phrase "ABANDONED THE LAW" and "I AM A SINNER IF I REBUILD THE OLD SYSTEM OF LAW I ALREADY TORE DOWN." It is abundantly clear that our early church fathers saw Christianity is a separation from the law of Moses. When you are using words like discarded and abandoned, and it is hard to justify holding on to even the behavioral laws. All Peter did was place importance on circumcision, and Paul accused him of not following the truth of the gospel. If that's the case, then the truth of the gospel has nothing to do with the Law of Moses. They are two separate things.

So in conclusion, and I know my post has been long, I respectfully agree with my friend Micheal (Lappinglivingwater) that the Old Testament laws have benefit. But I also respectfully disagree and believe that we are not to follow them as Christians. Paul was fierce in his arguments against the Law. And I think that stemmed from his Pharisee background. He opposed Peter publicly. Why? Because he wanted to make sure that people didn't start looking to the laws of circumcision and other behavioral laws for righteousness. These ideas were in direct opposition to the gospel of Jesus Christ. So when reading the Old Testament, the letter of the law is not important. It is the Spirit of the Law that matters. That is what Jesus fulfilled. That is how we are to interpret "Thou Shalt Not Murder." We must not stop there as a Christian. We must embrace a new and more glorious philosophy. We must move beyond "Thou shalt not murder" and discover the new covenant of "Love your enemies." We must move beyond the letter of the law in "Don't commit adultery" and embrace the spirit of the law "to not even lust after another woman." That is why the Holy Spirit has been given to us. To help us discern the Spirit of the Law. And that is why there is no life in following the law, but eternal life in following the Spirit. So I have discarded and abandoned the letter of the laws of Moses, to instead follow the Spirit.

So the verse that sparked my response deserves to be highlighted once again...
6He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life."
It can not be stated any more clearly. The new covenant is not a covenant of written laws.

Romans 8:6-16
"6So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace. 7For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will. 8That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.
9But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.) 10And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life because you have been made right with God. 11The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.
12Therefore, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do. 13For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.
15So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God’s Spirit when he adopted you as his own children. Now we call him, “Abba, Father.” 16For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God’s children."
Trust in the Lord with all your heart - Prov. 3:5,6
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Re: 2 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 3

by ECCENTRICSHEEP Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:48 pm

Wow that was epically long, but epically awesome!
THE ECCENTRIC SHEEP MUSINGS

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Re: 2 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 3

by Kevin Young Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:51 pm

That took me so long to write. I think like 4 hours.... Nap time
Trust in the Lord with all your heart - Prov. 3:5,6
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Re: 2 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 3

by notebooknut Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:02 pm

Have a nice nap! And don't feel bad. Daddies are allowed to nap. I think one of the most precious things I have ever seen was your little girl knocked out cold on your lap at the signing table. It was so stinking sweet.

Oh, so now my three year old nephew was walking around his house the other day, and he was singing, "Set off, set off, all burn down." He was kinda stuttering so I didn't make out what he was singing the first time through... Then it hit me: HE WAS SINGING WATCH IT BURN!!! And in that moment I realized that I was the best aunt I could ever be-- just for playing Disciple 24/7 around them. I was so proud. :cry: And that's a happy cry!
- Maddie

"Opposite as the day and night
As different as the sun and moon is
This is the reality of my duality
This WE needs to become a ME!"
- Jonathan Thulin, Jekyll & Hyde
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Re: 2 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 3

by Kevin Young Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:33 pm

Thanks Maddie!!!
Trust in the Lord with all your heart - Prov. 3:5,6
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Re: 2 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 3

by notebooknut Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:53 am

So welcome! You guys are the best of the best! Lolz, I got a selfie with Joey and it's every profile picture I can possibly have! Love you guys!!
- Maddie

"Opposite as the day and night
As different as the sun and moon is
This is the reality of my duality
This WE needs to become a ME!"
- Jonathan Thulin, Jekyll & Hyde
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Re: 2 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 3

by sassy1506 Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:49 am

Courtney, you always seem to say exactly what I need to hear!

Columbia, your posts are always great, thanks!

Maddie, you're so understanding and mature. I love you so much!

Kevvy, your post was freaking amazing! Thanks for taking the time to write it! You're awesome!

3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.


I love this verse! I mean, stop and think about what this is saying. Being a letter from Christ means looking and sounding like Him. We may be the only example of Christ someone sees, and we should do our best to remember that.

I have a lot of friends who are fans of Disciple just because they've heard and seen the marks you guys have made on my life.... We need to be willing to show the world our brokenness before Christ, so they can really understand just how much knowing Him changes your life.


17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.


Sin deserves death. Where the Law is concerned, there are few second chances. But through the Spirit of the Lord, there is freedom to make mistake after mistake. And it's through those endless mistakes where we truly begin to discover and understand God's grace.


It's almost 4am and I can't even focus my eyes anymore, so hopefully this made sense...
-Sam

"Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you" -James 4:7
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Re: 2 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 3

by notebooknut Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:54 am

I agree with everything this girl is saying. Well I mean, besides the mature thing... LOVE YOU TOO SAMMY!!!! :) Yes, just to annoy you.
- Maddie

"Opposite as the day and night
As different as the sun and moon is
This is the reality of my duality
This WE needs to become a ME!"
- Jonathan Thulin, Jekyll & Hyde
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Re: 2 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 3

by Columbia Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:54 pm

Glad to see Kevin's good exegetical post. Hope it didn't cost him too much time away from his family but it gave me great confidence in this forum. This is really about the Bible rather than about music. Can see why Kevin took this leadership role.
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Re: 2 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 3

by n2gsus Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:12 pm

Just checking in. I'm following the study,however I'm tired. May post more later!
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Re: 2 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 3

by ImNotInvisible Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:20 am

"You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts." ( V. 3) That's what it's about right there. That's what I aim to be. I want my life to be a living testimony of Jesus Christ in such a way that when a stranger looked at me, they would thirst forever was inside me. I want to look healthy in a sick, damaged world. Christianity isn't a doctrine "written in ink" or "on tablets of stone". It's a life style, and it encompasses all of you. Your music, art, writing: Part of your faith. Your job, family life, and grocery shopping: Part of your faith. There's not a segregation between when you are a Christian and you're singing hymns in your Sunday's best or when you're in your band merch listening to Disciple. There is no half-way Christian. You either are, and live like it however your life is, or you aren't. Don't get me wrong, it's a challenge for all of us, and it most definitely includes me. However, I think a big problem with how a lot of Churches are run today is because there is a mindset that Christianity is separate from "Secularity" (you're a christian in Church, but driving around town can't be Christian). They think there is a line between Sunday and all the other days of the week. There's not though. Jesus didn't care if it was the Sabbath, he did the Father's business. Jesus didn't care that He was preaching on Thursday or Friday or any other day. Your Christianity goes wherever you go. In the car, on your phone, to a concert.... It's all God's. Jesus Christ's blood encompasses ALL of your sin, and therefore ALL of your life.


Rambling.. sorry.
- Sophie
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Re: 2 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 3

by notebooknut Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:39 am

You never need to apologize, Sophie!
- Maddie

"Opposite as the day and night
As different as the sun and moon is
This is the reality of my duality
This WE needs to become a ME!"
- Jonathan Thulin, Jekyll & Hyde
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Re: 2 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 3

by WanderingStar Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:41 pm

Quick thought to add to this belatedly--

2 Cor 3:18 wrote:And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

One of my college professors who was very influential in my life made this point about this: we become like what we look at. This concept pierces me to my core. When I notice that the patterns of my life are becoming broken, when I notice I'm becoming less and less like Christ, this verse challenges me to ask myself what am I looking at? If I'm spending all my time fixated on what the world values, on the opinions of others, on my own personal idols, on my own flaws, I'll become conformed to their images. Sometimes I think transformation is as simple as changing what we look at, making eye contact with God, tearing our gaze away from anything else the world has to offer.
- Mary

"Is it OK to not know, not have the answers, and simply be someone who is searching for Someone to save me?"

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Re: 2 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 3

by ECCENTRICSHEEP Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:21 pm

WanderingStar wrote:Quick thought to add to this belatedly--

2 Cor 3:18 wrote:And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

One of my college professors who was very influential in my life made this point about this: we become like what we look at. This concept pierces me to my core. When I notice that the patterns of my life are becoming broken, when I notice I'm becoming less and less like Christ, this verse challenges me to ask myself what am I looking at? If I'm spending all my time fixated on what the world values, on the opinions of others, on my own personal idols, on my own flaws, I'll become conformed to their images. Sometimes I think transformation is as simple as changing what we look at, making eye contact with God, tearing our gaze away from anything else the world has to offer.


And even some of the stuff we look at that's away from God can totally desensitize us and numb us to what is real and true...like violent images and pornography...they shock you at first, but then you get use to them and need more and more shocking things to feel anything because your brain gets use to over and over. It never satisfies you, it can't satisfy you.

Looking at opinions of others can do the same thing, you just need more and more...more likes on instagram, more comments on facebook...over and over every day something to hold onto to feel like you mean something. When you already mean everything to God without all this junk. You need more and more from your idols, always more.

When you look away from God, there's never enough, you always need more, you can never be satisfied because the world can't satisfy you. And you lose yourself trying to become something to feel accepted by this world.

I have once tried to be something I wasn't just to fit in somewhere and have friends. I was so painfully lonely I went to those lengths, and I knew it was a lie but I didn't care I just wanted friends so bad. I had to look away from God to do that too. I got nothing from all that in the end. Yet here I am, not being fake at all just being totally myself, darkness and all, accepted by you guys. Not having to fall away from God to belong somewhere.
THE ECCENTRIC SHEEP MUSINGS

TO THOSE IN THE FIGHT AGAINST DEPRESSION
http://jesuswired.com/eccentric-sheep-m ... epression/

SELF INJURY AWARENESS DAY POST
https://jesuswired.com/eccentric-sheep- ... ury-story/
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Re: 2 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 3

by Kevin Young Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:30 pm

I like you being yourself.... you're like a shepherd! (see what I did there)
Trust in the Lord with all your heart - Prov. 3:5,6
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